An accidental homosexuality experiment?

[Loghead]

Sexual acts between two people of the same sex is a sin.

It frustrates me how this is commonly viewed as fact.

 

[StSapphire]

Could you then explain where homophobic ideas come from, or do they just come into existence from nowhere, created by magic sparks of logic?

As jillio mentioned already, the same place that sexism and racism and all other forms of marginalization and hatred of minority groups comes from - fear and rejection of those different from you. You start with the fear and rejection, and from there you get things like the more judgmental books of the Bible.

Born-again Christians will commit sins after salvation. The Bible says so. However, they won't continue in sin. That means, they won't live in a continuous pattern of sinful life. They have turned away from the direction of sinful life. When they do sin, they will repent, rather than just ignore the sin and do more.

So basically, what you're saying is that No True (Born Again) Christian can live in sin, because that disqualifies them as a True Christian, regardless of their beliefs? Internal consistency is something that humans have never been good at, and religious beliefs are nothing special there.

I John 1:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You do realize that quoting the Bible to me bears just as much weight as quoting Harry Potter to me would, right? Just because it says something does not make it true.

God has revealed Himself, and His character, thru His Word. We might not know how He will deal with a certain situation but we can trust that however He does, it will be what is best for us (because of #2).

So if he hands you a stone tablet saying "Thou shalt rape the virgins" then that is now "Good" because God knows what's best for us?

Why would we need to predict His actions? Can you predict what will happen to you in your daily life? You may have a daily routine but it can be turned upside down at any time.

Yes, my brain is an excellent prediction machine. My brain is capable of abstract representation of ideas and objects and concepts, and is able to run those through scenarios, allowing me to predict what will happen in many different scenarios.

If your moral code is simply "God's/Jesus' word is my command", then you need to be able to predict God's mandates on anything or else you risk having no moral code whatsoever in unfamiliar situations.

The Creator is superior in all ways to the creation and creatures. That's why we can trust Him.

The Bible is finished. God won't be adding any more to His Word. The time of personal revelation is done.

According to you. But God is superior, so maybe he was testing you or something else similar. You already said that you can't predict God's actions, so he could proclaim forth a new edict at any time. He's God, he can do whatever the heck he wants.

Also, God doesn't expect a believer to do anything that would contradict His other commandments.

Unless he does. Because you don't know God's mind, because it's vastly superior to your own.

Therefore, you have set up a situation that can't happen.

I did not.

God doesn't base right and wrong on what is socially acceptable. There are many things that are socially acceptable that are against God's will. Also, what is socially acceptable varies on the society. Each society in time and place is different and changeable. God is constant and unchangeable. He doesn't follow trends or political correctness.

Things like slavery, and ownership of women, and murder and rape. All of which in various books of the bible have been condoned by God.

It frustrates me how this is commonly viewed as fact.

When you can define "sin" as simply "that which my beliefs declare wrong" then sure they can get away with it. It's simply that "sin" has no rational or objective meaning.

 

[Reba]

So basically, what you're saying is that No True (Born Again) Christian can live in sin, because that disqualifies them as a True Christian, regardless of their beliefs? Internal consistency is something that humans have never been good at, and religious beliefs are nothing special there.

No, I didn't say that sin disqualifies them as Christians. No one is ever "disqualified" as Christians.

You do realize that quoting the Bible to me bears just as much weight as quoting Harry Potter to me would, right? Just because it says something does not make it true.

I was showing you the basis for my statement. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe it.

So if he hands you a stone tablet saying "Thou shalt rape the virgins" then that is now "Good" because God knows what's best for us?

You know, it's as though you don't even read my responses. Are you just yanking my chain?

Yes, my brain is an excellent prediction machine. My brain is capable of abstract representation of ideas and objects and concepts, and is able to run those through scenarios, allowing me to predict what will happen in many different scenarios.

With 100% accuracy every time? You know ahead of time if you're going to be in an accident?

If your moral code is simply "God's/Jesus' word is my command", then you need to be able to predict God's mandates on anything or else you risk having no moral code whatsoever in unfamiliar situations.

I know what God requires of me. I don't need to know what God plans to do. I don't need to predict anything.

According to you. But God is superior, so maybe he was testing you or something else similar. You already said that you can't predict God's actions, so he could proclaim forth a new edict at any time. He's God, he can do whatever the heck he wants.

God cannot lie or act against His character. He's told us in His Word that the Scriptures are complete, so He's not going to add anything.

Unless he does. Because you don't know God's mind, because it's vastly superior to your own.

We do know the mind of God that He's shared with us in His Word. He doesn't want us to be ignorant of His will.

Things like slavery, and ownership of women, and murder and rape. All of which in various books of the bible have been condoned by God.

The Bible includes an honest history of what people did. That doesn't mean God condones the actions. He doesn't. In fact, He shows how the wrong actions and behaviors result in terrible consequences, as a warning.

When you can define "sin" as simply "that which my beliefs declare wrong" then sure they can get away with it. It's simply that "sin" has no rational or objective meaning.

Sin does have meaning if you believe what God said. If you don't believe, then there is no such thing as sin to you. The sin is still there; you just don't see it.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Your own religion. Not others. Not everyone who mentions religions is referring to your specific denomination.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say her church? I found out Baptists in New York don't even adhere to the same belief as the Baptists in North or South Carolina. So even within brethrens, there are differences of opinions. The problem with some posters here is they assume their particular church is the same belief as every other Christian's. So when one claim "my religion" it's not as all-encompassing as they're making it out to be.

I fought constantly with a Baptist who disagreed with my mother's teachings. She really did think all Christians follow the same doctrines. To be honest, sometimes, when Reba talks about Christianity, I have no idea where she's coming from because it's completely the opposite of how my family raised their children within their own brethren.

 

[Reba]

I belong to an independent Baptist church. There are churches all over the USA and world that share the same doctrines and statement of faith as my church. Each church is autonomous.

I use the term "religion" in some of my posted replies because that's how the questions were phrased.

 

[flip]

As jillio mentioned already, the same place that sexism and racism and all other forms of marginalization and hatred of minority groups comes from - fear and rejection of those different from you. You start with the fear and rejection, and from there you get things like the more judgmental books of the Bible.

You can't support your claims with hard evidence, but I accept it as a faith of yours. It's a question what came first, the chicken or egg.
This also don't explain why this "raised OR born" question don't matter much in other parts of the world, and why it's a cultural obession in the western world. State of the art research on those matters, don't try to answer that question anymore, because it's too narrow and only makes sense in a historical context, where the christian church and it's sodomy policy have ruled the mindset for centuries in the western world.

So, it's still a question, that origins from a specific religious(or quasi religious for those of you who confess to a functional definition of religion) mindset.

 

[flip]

Maybe the same place where racism comes from? After all, didn't racist people use the Bible to justify their hate?

Not saying that the Bible is bad but people DO twist the words in the book to fit to their agenda.

Where does ANY hate of a group start from?!?

Good question. It's one of the great mysteries to me. I've read some pretty good explainations in the fields of sociolgy and psychology. I suspect hate comes in different kinds and shapes in different cultures and religions.

 

[netrox]

I am not looking for reasons why homosexuality is right or wrong. There is no point in that. I just want to see if you think that this story is good evidence that homosexuality is not something that is learned and why (or why not)?

Well, the brain works in weird ways. You can have amnesia - forgetting even people you knew all your life - yet you still remember your language. Sexuality is probably the same as well.

 

[Berry]

What were we talking about?

 

[deafskeptic]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say her church? I found out Baptists in New York don't even adhere to the same belief as the Baptists in North or South Carolina. So even within brethrens, there are differences of opinions. The problem with some posters here is they assume their particular church is the same belief as every other Christian's. So when one claim "my religion" it's not as all-encompassing as they're making it out to be.

I fought constantly with a Baptist who disagreed with my mother's teachings. She really did think all Christians follow the same doctrines. To be honest, sometimes, when Reba talks about Christianity, I have no idea where she's coming from because it's completely the opposite of how my family raised their children within their own brethren.

I grew up Southern Baptist. My parent's church and minister in Richmond was at odds with the fundamentalist faction of our religion.

Even Baptists of the same religion (ie. Southern Baptist) may differ on how they worship or dress depending on which Baptist church they go to or how they relate to other Christians among other things.

Billy Graham (famous Southern Baptist), for example, believes in infant baptism. My church didn't do that. They would baptize folks who believed in Christ and I remember attending my little sister's baptism when she was 13 or 14.

 

[Reba]

...Billy Graham (famous Southern Baptist), for example, believes in infant baptism....

That is strange indeed. The Baptist distinctive is that they don't accept infant baptism. Believers' baptism only is accepted.

 

[TXgolfer]

Most religions do not specifically teach us to show compassion to animals (esp dogs and cats) and yet... most of us show compassion to animals. Evidence that it can come from within?

Rock badgers?

 

[Berry]

Most religions do not specifically teach us to show compassion to animals (esp dogs and cats) and yet... most of us show compassion to animals. Evidence that it can come from within?

Most Christian churches. Christianity is a religion. Christianity is also pyramidical, that is God is at the pinnacle, the various tiers of angels beneath, then humanity, then animals, then plants, then the rest of the universe. Christians, Muslims, and Jews are the three main branches of the same religion.

In Hinduism animals play an entirely different role. In fact the soul that is embodied in an animal today may once have been embodied in a human and may be again. The animal may actually be superior and further in its spiritual development than the person.

In some Native American Tribes gods are not "worshipped" they are simply more powerful beings and no better nor worse than a person or a cat or a dog -- Just different. In some Tribes animals are simply our brothers and sisters in this life.

Religions differ more than sects within a religion, but it would seem to me people fight more fiercely over tiny differences than major differences.

 

[Reba]

Mutual compassion, animals and humans.

YouTube - ‪Bridgestone - Beaver-Super Bowl Commercial‬‏

 

[Berry]

Due to recent threads, I wanted to share a true story about this gay guy I know.

I went high school with this guy, James*, who was a very flamboyant gay guy who was open about his sexuality. Heck, his self proclaimed nickname was Pinky. Shortly after graduation from high school, he got into a really bad car accident and went into a coma for several days. He woke up but had amnesia (temporary). He didn't even recognize his own mother. His mom, who had never accepted his homosexuality, took this opportunity to "fix" things. She managed to convince one of James' acquaintances to pretend to be his old girlfriend. So the girl did what she was told. Not even a day later (still in the hospital), James confessed to what he thought was his old girlfriend that he is pretty sure that he is gay. He said something to the lines of "I don't remember why I was hiding it from you and I'm really sorry but... I know I'm gay." Needless to say, later on (a few weeks later), when he finally slowly gained his memory back, he was really upset at his mother for doing this to him.

I thought this was actually somewhat of a really good experiment to see if homosexuality is something that is "learned" or "felt from within".

My question to you is: "Is this true story evidence that homosexuality is something that is inherent"?

I am not looking for reasons why homosexuality is right or wrong. There is no point in that. I just want to see if you think that this story is good evidence that homosexuality is not something that is learned and why (or why not)?

True story, huh? It sounds very much like a forwarded email urban legend. How did you find out about this?

I grant it does have that "urban legend sound" to it, but I looked around and could not find one on the net like it. If it were an urban legend it would be "out there" somewhere.

 

[Daredevel7]

I grant it does have that "urban legend sound" to it, but I looked around and could not find one on the net like it. If it were an urban legend it would be "out there" somewhere.

I find it somewhat amusing that it sounds too much of an urban legend, as if it would never happen in real life. Another question for everyone: Do you honestly believe that this would never happen and why?

I was shocked when the girl told me, but I was more shocked (in a disgusted way) by the mother's actions, but I wasn't that shocked that it happened at all.

To be frank, I know quite a few people who have the capability do that. However, that opportunity is somewhat rare and must have the right set of circumstances. Gay person who got amnesia who ALSO happens to have a homophobic mother. (Father is not in the picture, he left the family when son was young)

 

[Reba]

I find it somewhat amusing that it sounds too much of an urban legend, as if it would never happen in real life. Another question for everyone: Do you honestly believe that this would never happen and why?

It was the style of writing that was similar to urban legend emails.

I was shocked when the girl told me, but I was more shocked (in a disgusted way) by the mother's actions, but I wasn't that shocked that it happened at all.

I wonder why the mother trusted that particular girl to play the role since she seems to be a blabbermouth who can't be trusted to keep a confidence. Why did the girl spread the story after? Was that beneficial to the son's recovery from the accident?

To be frank, I know quite a few people who have the capability do that. However, that opportunity is somewhat rare and must have the right set of circumstances. Gay person who got amnesia who ALSO happens to have a homophobic mother. (Father is not in the picture, he left the family when son was young)

True. The combination of circumstances like that are rare, I would think.

 

[StSapphire]

You can't support your claims with hard evidence, but I accept it as a faith of yours. It's a question what came first, the chicken or egg.
This also don't explain why this "raised OR born" question don't matter much in other parts of the world, and why it's a cultural obession in the western world. State of the art research on those matters, don't try to answer that question anymore, because it's too narrow and only makes sense in a historical context, where the christian church and it's sodomy policy have ruled the mindset for centuries in the western world.

So, it's still a question, that origins from a specific religious(or quasi religious for those of you who confess to a functional definition of religion) mindset.

Uh... what claims, exactly? That hate and intolerance typically stems from fear of the different/unknown? Or that church doctrines of intolerance stemmed from personal intolerance, rather than the other way around? I don't have any peer-reviewed research at-hand, no. That doesn't make it the same as being "merely faith" though - it's an idea I've heard (a number of times before) that seems reasonable, hasn't been contradicted by any evidence I've seen, and is a simple (rather than complex) explanation. If I come across any evidence which would contradict that or find an explanation that equally explains it with (computationally) simpler terms, then I'd accept that instead.

Good question. It's one of the great mysteries to me. I've read some pretty good explainations in the fields of sociolgy and psychology. I suspect hate comes in different kinds and shapes in different cultures and religions.

Most of the materials on the subject I've read indicated that hate in whatever form most often stems from fear of the unknown or fear of what's different. Racism, sexism, homophobia, all could be explained by this.

Well, the brain works in weird ways. You can have amnesia - forgetting even people you knew all your life - yet you still remember your language. Sexuality is probably the same as well.

This actually seems like the most reasonable response to this here. I'd be curious whether he remembered any other preferences, such as whether he liked pizza or pop or anything similar, or if other similar preferences stayed the same as well.

What were we talking about?

Dudes gettin' it on with other dudes, and chicks gettin' it on with other chicks. Aww, yeah...

Rock badgers?

ROCK LOBSTER!

 

[Daredevel7]

It was the style of writing that was similar to urban legend emails.

Hahaha, not sure if I should take that as a compliment? I'm not a very good writer. Never been good at English.

I wonder why the mother trusted that particular girl to play the role since she seems to be a blabbermouth who can't be trusted to keep a confidence. Why did the girl spread the story after? Was that beneficial to the son's recovery from the accident?

To be frank, if the mother is dumb enough to try to trick his son about his sexuality, I think she's dumb enough to pick whatever girl to play a part in her ploy. All the girl was supposed to do was introduce herself as his old girlfriend ('but we are just good friends now'). The mother originally wanted her to be the current girlfriend but the girl was like "Um.. NO cuz what if we kiss or something and we have to break up eventually!" Obviously the mother didn't think it through. The mother wouldn't even KNOW that he would get amnesia until he woke up. Not much time for "planning".

And remember, this was right after high school. Even at 18 years old, kids are still not that mature.... (PS, now you see one of the reasons why I don't like her and refuse to call her my friend.)

It wasn't only the girl who spread the story after. The gay guy also talked about it when he regained his memory. He was PISSED....

 

[StSapphire]

I find it somewhat amusing that it sounds too much of an urban legend, as if it would never happen in real life. Another question for everyone: Do you honestly believe that this would never happen and why?

As reba said, it's mostly that the wording sounded akin to that, is all. And, more importantly, it's on the internet. A base level of skepticism of fantastical-sounding stories is usually warranted, lol.

It certainly sounds unlikely, but crazy people do crazy things all the time, so I definitely wouldn't say "never".

I wonder why the mother trusted that particular girl to play the role since she seems to be a blabbermouth who can't be trusted to keep a confidence. Why did the girl spread the story after? Was that beneficial to the son's recovery from the accident?

For the mom - bad judgement? And I'm sure the girl spread the story because she was a teenager and thought it'd get attention for her, which I'm sure it did. I doubt she cared as much about his recovery as she did about her own popularity and level of attention received. Teenagers are stupid that way, lol.