A NEW BOOK "TO BE DEAF OR NOT TO BE DEAF" to be out

Uhh i can see this debate certainly has its toll, I sure would say for one thing this is an age old debate that can disperse cuz no one will resolve anythin!!!
 
DD, I'd stop assuming if I were you. It doesn't stop at SSD . . . theres DVR, Intepreter services, Residential schools, GU, NTID, ASL research, and so on . . . In other "cultures" wealth can be generated from within (or the possibility exists for it to). In the deaf culture, what few truly successful dollars that can be generated is lopsidely offset by the subsancial amount being paid by society (taxpayers).

While on the other hand CI users in the future may not need the same level of depence on society and may eventually become entirely self-supporting.
 
theres DVR, Intepreter services, Residential schools, GU, NTID, ASL research, and so on . . .
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Oral deaf people depend on DVR(it's not just Signing Deaf...ALL deaf and hoh people are eligible for DVR services!) and Interpreter services (I assume you've never heard of lipspeakers, or oral interpreters or Cued Speech transliterators), some of them have gone to residental schools...matter of fact, there are oral deaf RESIDENTAL schools! Oral deafness isn't a magic wand that reduces dependance on government services. There's no evidence whatsoever that going the oral deaf route equals a better life.
Besides, there are a lot of cultures which depend on the government to survive...
Native Americans, (I'm actually taking a course on this, and the parellels between the deaf-culture and the Native American culture are eirirly simliar. I was even talking to my professor about this!)

While on the other hand CI users in the future may not need the same level of depence on society and may eventually become entirely self-supporting.
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I bet seventy years ago, they thought that hearing aids were the key to freedom for deaf people. While there are some superstars with CIs, even a lot of pro-oral experts admit that the sucess rate is incredibly varied, and not everyone's going to be able to hear 100% or even 70%. or even 50% with the CI. Just remember, there have ALWAYS been oral superstars(even BEFORE hearing aids!)...that doesn't mean that they represent everyone with a CI.
 
deafdyke said:
Looks like Jake doesn't know how to respond!!!!!!
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* 5 * :rofl:

You should read his idiot book what he wrote. You would be :laugh2: Be prepare yourself.
 
I've been wanting to read the books. They are probaly even better to laugh at then Mad magazine. However I refuse to spend my own money to read them.
I absolutly love how Jake uses HIS experiance as "proof" that HOH folks aren't a part of Deaf culture...... He is HOH, yes...but the reason why his experiance in the whole Deaf culture has been so negative is b/c he is POSTLINGALLY deaf, not b/c he can hear relatively well!
I'm not saying that Deaf culture is perfect...far from it...I just think that the detractors bash it too much!
 
pez,
here's more info on audism by gallaudet
From:* "USA-L News" <usa-l_news@c...>
Date:* Tue*Oct*21,*2003* 7:52 pm
Subject:* L.Clerc Fly on Audism

Laurent Clerc Fly on Audism
By Alice L. Hagemeyer, founder
FOLDA

A copy of the Gallaudet University Library document - Deaf-related
Resources: Frequently Asked Questions: Audism - was introduced at the recent
National Literary Society of the Deaf (NLS) program, WHAT IS AUDISM? that
met at the White Oak Library in Silver Spring, Maryland.

Those who want additional information about audism should check this useful
Gallaudet University Library resource. It has a wealth of information, which
includes references for further reading on audism.

This document can be read at or printed out from
www.gallaudet.edu/dr/faq-audism.html.

Dynamic speaker, Dirksen Bauman, discussed three levels of audism and also
shared his personal experience on how he got his new identity in his early
20s as capital-H "Hearing."

In opening his talk, he announced to the audience that he was born with the
ability to hear, but he didn't become "Hearing" until he was 21 years old
when he started working for the Colorado School for the Deaf and Blind in
1980s. He did not know sign language at that time and all the deaf children
called him "Hearing." Today, he is a fluent ASL signer and the only Hearing
professor in the Dept. of Deaf Studies at Gallaudet University.

National Lliterary Society of the Deaf (NLS) is a partner of FOLDA. NLS was
founded on February 6, 1907 in the metropolitan Washington area. Jeanette
Mortzfeldt is the current president. For more information about NLS, please
send email to FOLDA86@a...
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(note: the link may be "not found" so use search on gallaudet and go from there)
(note again: ok the link in the quote should be http://library.gallaudet.edu/dr/faq-audism.html instead )
(again!: I just realized that I already posted this info on page 2! hmmm oh well )
 
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Jake....just found out that Ling predicted that ASL/Sign/Deaf culture would be extinct or dying by 2003....*looks around at AllDeaf* Well...I guess he was wrong! Ling and many other oralists assumed that it was an either or choice when it came to commuication and culture! They did not realize the fact that most kids raised without Sign eventually pick up ASL...they also did not count on parents of hoh children deciding to expose their kids to ASL....It's kind of funny...years ago HOH kids got a pure oral education, and only oral failures got to learn ASL early on...now deaf kids are getting "pure oral" first and HOH and even HEARING KIDS (especially those with no disabilties) are learning ASL as a second OR first language(ever hear of baby signing?) early on....(I know of TONS of HOH kids who are learning ASL and attending schools for the Deaf!)
 
I sure would say for one thing this is an age old debate that can disperse cuz no one will resolve anythin!!!
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Java, I'm aware that this debate has been going on for a long time..however it's not a Sign vs. Speech debate. I am not arguing that we should dump hearing aids/CIs in the wastebasket, and have absolutly no contact with the hearing world...I support speech , and auditory training as it opens up oppertunties for deaf and hoh kids. I just think that Sign should be included in educating deaf and hoh kids, to give them every opertunty possible, and to help capitlize on deaf/hoh kids visual strenghs.
 
granted ur right but shouldn't the parents themselves decide whats best for thier kid and how they want to approach it ??? and as for inculding the signs and all im all for that too deafdyke, just the justification belongs to the parents and the kids themselves, debating the issue its like a battle sure we're entiled to have opioions but u can see pros and cons will always be a factor as well.

I say if the kid wants to sign fine but if parents themselves are deaf and unable to speak then by all means help them communicate with sign im sure they will do it anyway in all aspect.
 
but shouldn't the parents themselves decide whats best for thier kid and how they want to approach it ??? and as for inculding the signs and all im all for that too deafdyke, just the justification belongs to the parents and the kids themselves, debating the issue its like a battle sure we're entiled to have opioions but u can see pros and cons will always be a factor as well.

I say if the kid wants to sign fine but if parents themselves are deaf and unable to speak then by all means help them communicate with sign im sure they will do it anyway in all aspect.
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Ah, parental choice, the old bugaboo. The trouble with parental choice is that too often when parents make commuication choices, they are making it based on very biased, inaccurate, and outdated information and stereotypes. Very few parents had/have real honest to goodness exposure to the day to day lives of deaf/hoh people. You gotta remember that until recently, most deaf and hoh people weren't really visable in the mainstream.
They tend to make their commuication decision based on what doctors and experts tell them. They also tend to make commuicative choices that seem more "normal" b/c most of them are still grieving the "loss" of a "healthy normal" (whatever that means) child. Thing is, most parents still see ASL/Sign as "speshal needs"(or a "crutch") not as a "real" language, that could give their kids advantages like English or French or even Esperanto! Pick up a copy of Volta Voices, and read the ads for early intervention programs, especially the Auditory-Verbal programs. You'll see that those ads clearly capiltilize on parental opinon of ASL/Sign as "speshal needs"/only for those poor wittle low functioning Deafies who cannot function well enough to hear and speak.
Some parents think that ASL and Deaf culture will automaticly lead to their child having a lesser quality of life, and that they'll be doomed to be one of those ASL card peddlers. I remember reading an article about a mother who raised her child with a CI and Cued Speech, and she kept yapping, that if she had chosen ASL/Deaf culture, her son's only career options would be to be on SSI/Disabilty or to be an ASL card peddler!!!! :roll:
Besides, I know far far far far far far too many parents of adult deaf/hoh who were raised oral who regret not learning ASL for their kids...I know my parents seriously regret not learning ASL for me..I know they regret being brainwashed into thinking that it was an "either or" choice for me. They now say that if they had only known, they would have gone with a bilingal approach.
I really wish more hearing parents signed with their kids, but the plain fact of the matter is, is that most Deaf kids do not have parents who Sign. There ARE hearing parents who Sign, and are very involved with their deaf/hoh kids, but most hearing parents of Signers do not Sign with their kids. That's a fact...it's a sad one...I wish it was different, that more parents CHOSE to use Sign, but even today most hearing parents of deaf/hoh don't sign.
 
Oh and Jake, methinks the reason a lot of deaf and hoh former oralists gravitate to ASL and Deaf culture is b/c the whole oral deaf/hoh experiance isn't very interesting. It's based purely on speech therapy and ALDs...(snore) How boring can you get? There's only so many times that you can talk about ALDs. Whereas it's lots of fun to learn all about Deaf culture and ASL. It's sort of like going to a new exoitic country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Also, Java, Jake's philosophy is that ASL is speshal needs. He (like a lot of experts) views ASL as a "crutch" rather then as an enhancement. According to him a pure oral kid who only says a couple of words or who has a lot of vocab but still has very garbled syntax (eg says "how many spiders have legs" instead of "how many legs do spiders have?") is more of an sucess then someone who can explain Harvard level stuff in ASL and doesn't really have too much oral skills.
 
I saw this book in the Merriam Park Library (in St Paul) today, I didnt think muc of it till now. I might go and look for it this week :) I was never really an oralist, but this sounds interesting enough for me.
 
The book being spoken about or Jake's book? I'd like to read To Be Deaf or Not to Be Deaf too!
 
Oral deafness isn't a magic wand that reduces dependance on government services. There's no evidence whatsoever that going the oral deaf route equals a better life.
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Jake, are you still out there? I just want to elaborate on what I said above.
Yes, oral skills open up the the hearing world to deaf and hard of hearing folks, but on the other hand, with healthcare being a HUGE medical expense for the average joe (not just people who are medically fragile or who have ten million medical issues) it would make more sense for a deaf person who significently benifits from hearing aids to dump the hearing aids and just learn ASL! Very few insurance plans cover hearing aids and not too many people can afford them out of pocket! Yes, there are CIs, but only some deaf people are eligable for them, and of those deaf people who get them, only a small percentage are superstars. (I think I read somewhere...and for the lurkers from Dumbonline, no it wasn't from a radical Deaf publication, that only 20% are superstars) I doubt that hearing technology is going to magically reduce deaf and hoh people's dependance on government services.
Implanting someone or giving them hearing aids will INCREASE their healthcare costs. (batteries, mappings, audi visits, other out of pocket costs)
Here's a question.....how come you don't see hearing technolgy as a "crutch?"
Oral deaf people can't function without hearing technology.....yet Signing Deaf people CAN function without expensive hearing technology!
Maybe that's a big reason why ASL isn't popular with deaf eductors today. B/c it isn't expensive and doesn't make money for hearing people!
 
Oh, and Jake.......I just finished learning about what Native American culture is like today.....the parellels to Deaf culture are very simlair!!!! There are some high achievers (Buffy Sainte-Marie, Lousie Erdrich etc) but many Native Americans are poor, and deal with a ton of problems...alcholoism etc.
Doesn't that sound familiar?
 
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