Positive Discrimination?

[spiritsword]

The Deaf world is being discriminated against, their culture is rarely acknowledged, their opinions rarely asked for, their integration either forced through oralism and/or technology or paternalistic as "poor deaf person" and finally their language is either seen as detrimental to cognitive development, mere 'monkey language' or just not acknowledged at all !
In short the hearing world does not understand the Deaf world, agree ?

However nothing in this world is as clear cut as that. There are hearing allies who passionately agree with Deaf views.
-> Sign Language is the natural language of the Deaf
-> Technology (I mainly refer to Choclear implants), although a benefit for some should be based on a well though out decision. NOT because an ignorant audiologist says "Your X month/year old child is disabled and we can help them" (It makes me annoyed just to write it!)
-> Due to a bad educational system there are still Deaf people leaving education with a standard that does not reflect their true ability/potential

These are of course only some of the points of view I have come across and that I agree with.
So we can all agree that it is not the whole hearing world that is against the Deaf ? And yet there is still discrimination, the Deaf live by double standards.

They justifiably complain about discrimination and yet turn around to their hearing ally and say "Oh you wouldn't understand you're not Deaf" or to their Deaf friend "Oh look s/he's being hearing again" !

These are unfair double standards ! How can an oppressed group hope to gain full respect and support if they do not practice what they preach ! If you push away your allies then who are you left with ?
As hearing people who have:
-> Made the effort to learn your fantastic language.
-> Stand by you when the rest of the world oppresses you.
->Agree with many of the hot issues that are discussed in your community.
We attempt to be integrated as equals in your community and yet you will allow us as friends to get so close but step out of line and say the wrong thing and suddenly the most important thing is not friendship but whether or not you can hear !?

This is a topic I know will probably cause some very stong feelings but I am genuinly interested in everyone's opinion and if this is a open and respectful forum we should be able to discuss this as adults.

Ian

p.s. I am sorry about my English, spelling is not my strong point.

 

[pek1]

The Deaf world is being discriminated against, their culture is rarely acknowledged, their opinions rarely asked for, their integration either forced through oralism and/or technology or paternalistic as "poor deaf person" and, finally, their language is either seen as detrimental to cognitive development, mere 'monkey language' or just not acknowledged at all! In short the hearing world does not understand the Deaf world. Agree?

However, nothing in this world is as clear cut as that. There are hearing allies who passionately agree with deaf views.
-> Sign Language is the natural language of the deaf
-> Technology (I mainly refer to Cochlear implants), although a benefit for some should be based on a well though out decision. NOT because an ignorant audiologist says, "Your X month/year old child is disabled and we can help them" (It makes me annoyed just to write it!)
-> Due to a bad educational system, there are still deaf people leaving education with a standard that does not reflect their true ability/potential.

These are, of course, only some of the points of view I have come across and that I agree with. So, can we all agree that it is not the whole hearing world that is against the deaf? And yet, there is still discrimination; the deaf live by double standards. They justifiably complain about discrimination and yet turn around to their hearing ally and say, "Oh, you wouldn't understand; you're not deaf," or to their deaf friend, "Oh look s/he's being hearing again!"

These are unfair double standards! How can an oppressed group hope to gain full respect and support if they do not practice what they preach! If you push away your allies, then who are you left with?
Hearing people have:
-> Made the effort to learn your fantastic language.
-> Stand by you when the rest of the world oppresses you.
->Agree with many of the hot issues that are discussed in your community. We attempt to be integrated as equals in your community and yet you will allow us, as friends, to get so close, but, step out of line and say the wrong thing, and suddenly, the most important thing is not friendship, but, whether or not you can hear!

This is a topic I know will probably cause some very stong feelings, but, I am genuinly interested in everyone's opinion, and, if this is a open and respectful forum, we should be able to discuss this as adults.

Ian

P.S. I am sorry about my English, spelling is not my strong point.

Ian,

Being the unofficial spell and grammar checker, I cleaned things up for you. Your English was fine, I just made some fine tunings to what you said, including punctuation.

By the way, "deaf" is the inability to hear, "Deaf" is a particular culture. Not all deaf people are part of Deaf culture. I agree with what you've said, but, at the same time, you need to understand where we deafs are coming from and, yes, we do deserve respect. "Hearies" (hearing people) think they know what's best for us, but in reality, they don't. If they didn't have their education to try and force deaf people to do what they never wanted to, hearies would have gotten along with us just fine. Many deaf people here have their stories on how they've been treated. Some choose to discuss it, some don't. For me, it's water under the bridge, but what I've learned here from the others, no hearie has ever told me and I respect every single one of them and consider them friends of mine, regardless of if we agree or not with each other. I will defend their rights and I know they will defend mine.

 

[Deafilmedia]

Yeah, they treat us deaf people like nothing.

I hate when hearing people sympathically approach us deaf people.
Like we are some type of dogs or something.

 

[Calphool]

Yeah, they treat us deaf people like nothing.

I hate when hearing people sympathically approach us deaf people.
Like we are some type of dogs or something.

Ignorant hearies definitely do that. They just can't imagine not having one of their senses. They don't understand that you don't really miss something if you never had it, or if you haven't had it for a long time.

However, I think that some deafies automatically assume paternalism when some hearies are just offering friendship and consideration. It becomes self-imposed discrimination. I've also heard of situations where a deafie begins to make friends with some hearies, and their own Deaf friends begin to ignore them. Again, it's a sort of self-imposed discrimination -- a kind of clique.

Certainly people like to socialize with others who are like them, and that's natural, but when an outsider just wants to make some new friends, it comes off like "you are not welcome here, hearie stranger... go away." I've certainly felt that way from time to time.

Not all deafies are like that of course, but some are. I look at it like this: "If you want to exclude me because I'm not deaf, that's your problem. I'm as friendly as the next person, so if you don't want to be my friend, then you lose out. I'll find some other person who isn't so close minded."

 

[Deafilmedia]

Ignorant hearies definitely do that. They just can't imagine not having one of their senses. They don't understand that you don't really miss something if you never had it, or if you haven't had it for a long time.

However, I think that some deafies automatically assume paternalism when some hearies are just offering friendship and consideration. It becomes self-imposed discrimination. I've also heard of situations where a deafie begins to make friends with some hearies, and their own Deaf friends begin to ignore them. Again, it's a sort of self-imposed discrimination -- a kind of clique.

Certainly people like to socialize with others who are like them, and that's natural, but when an outsider just wants to make some new friends, it comes off like "you are not welcome here, hearie stranger... go away." I've certainly felt that way from time to time.

Not all deafies are like that of course, but some are. I look at it like this: "If you want to exclude me because I'm not deaf, that's your problem. I'm as friendly as the next person, so if you don't want to be my friend, then you lose out. I'll find some other person who isn't so close minded."

I guess they exclude you because they don't want to be outnumbered.
Just like at CSUN, deaf sorority group and deaf fratnerity group, many
hearing people want to join in... And if deaf sorority group and deaf fratnerity
group have more hearing people than deaf people, then it shouldn't be
call deaf sorority group and deaf fratnerity.

Deaf people just wanna hang out with each other... let them.

Don't feel you're being insulted.... just try to understand instead.

 

[jillio]

Ignorant hearies definitely do that. They just can't imagine not having one of their senses. They don't understand that you don't really miss something if you never had it, or if you haven't had it for a long time.

However, I think that some deafies automatically assume paternalism when some hearies are just offering friendship and consideration. It becomes self-imposed discrimination. I've also heard of situations where a deafie begins to make friends with some hearies, and their own Deaf friends begin to ignore them. Again, it's a sort of self-imposed discrimination -- a kind of clique.

I don't see it so much as self-imposed discrimination as a self protective mechanism to protect themselves from additional discrimination and hurtful behavior from others. Any indiviudal that has experienced discrimination will react in a way that is consistent with thier own personality and coping skills. If the discrimination is severe enough, and threatens their feelings of self worth enough, they will avoid situations and members of the offending group. It is self protective. One does what one feels one must do to preserve some degree of self-esteem and self-respect. This is not common just to the Deaf, but to anyone who has experienced discrimination and control by another group.

Certainly people like to socialize with others who are like them, and that's natural, but when an outsider just wants to make some new friends, it comes off like "you are not welcome here, hearie stranger... go away." I've certainly felt that way from time to time.

Some deaf/Deaf have encountered so much pain from other members of the hearing culture that they view anyone who is hearing with suspicion. It is a natural and normal reaction for them to have. That is not to say that their friendship and respect cannot be gained. It just takes a lot of effort and time to do so. They expect hearies to threat them badly, because, for them, that is what has always happened in the past. They have to be shown that there are exeptions to everything. You can be that exception if you are willing to devote the time and effort necessary.

Not all deafies are like that of course, but some are. I look at it like this: "If you want to exclude me because I'm not deaf, that's your problem. I'm as friendly as the next person, so if you don't want to be my friend, then you lose out. I'll find some other person who isn't so close minded."

And some hearies are still very discriminatory. The way you view the situation is exactly the way those deaf who are suspicious of the hearing view it. "If you want to exclude me because I am not dearing, then that's your problem." Have patience. Centuries of discrimination have produced attitudes and values that cannot be overcome in an instant.

 

[Kaitin]

Hi, Ian

So we can all agree that it is not the whole hearing world that is against the Deaf ?

Of course. But many deaf/HoH struggle with school and jobs so maybe not the "whole hearing world" but many important problems because of some hearing people.

But "the whole hearing world" is wrong because too big - like "you" or "the Deaf" wrong because too big I think.

And yet there is still discrimination, the Deaf live by double standards.

They justifiably complain about discrimination and yet turn around to their hearing ally and say "Oh you wouldn't understand you're not Deaf" or to their Deaf friend "Oh look s/he's being hearing again" !

These are unfair double standards!

Unfair? My hearing friends are great but they don't understand somethings really. They don't worry about communication always. They don't have ST forever and worry about speech in the grocery store, at the mall, walking down the street. They don't fear the police because they don't hear siren or PA and need paper and pen from car to write. They don't think about communication before a party - anyone know ASL/sign or enough light for lipreading or pen and paper etc? They don't wonder if they miss something in conversation or class. They don't meet people who only interest in deaf/HoH, ASL etc or think they are stupid because they write or speak great. They don't worry people get angry because too many repeats. Maybe they understand these but they don't feel these - big difference and not unfair I think. I read replies by deaf-blind people in AD and understand some problems with deaf-blind people but I don't feel these. If a deaf-blind person say to me "you don't understand you are not deaf-blind" I say "you are right".

How can an oppressed group hope to gain full respect and support if they do not practice what they preach ! If you push away your allies then who are you left with ?
As hearing people who have:
-> Made the effort to learn your fantastic language.
-> Stand by you when the rest of the world oppresses you.
->Agree with many of the hot issues that are discussed in your community.
We attempt to be integrated as equals in your community and yet you will allow us as friends to get so close but step out of line and say the wrong thing and suddenly the most important thing is not friendship but whether or not you can hear !?

No. I don't "push away" hearing friends for the "wrong thing". Now I try to decide CI - a hot topic and very important to me. Many of my hearing friends have strong opinion about CI and no information and they tell me the opinions. No problem because I know they try to help (they are not helpful) and because they stop when I ask. I don't "push away". I ask to stop or give information about CI or change the subject.

Also - you understand discrimination about deaf/HoH. So please understand some deaf/HoH have bad experiences - not just with friends but with work and school.

p.s. I am sorry about my English, spelling is not my strong point.

No problem. Spelling is not my strong point also. k

 

[arachyd]

The problems being talked about - discrimination, worry about light to sign, not understanding about CI - these exist because hearing people can't fully understand the deaf world. Many never will understand how much they don't understand. One way to make this less of a problem is to continue to pursue friendships in both worlds. If a hearing person gives 100 parties and only 1 deaf person attends 1 party then considering the needs of the deaf is not going to be high on the list of how to make a successful party. Usually, music and food will be the top considerations. If at most of those 100 parties at least few deaf people attend the host will see that frequent guests have specific needs for lighting, etc. and many of the guests who don't know any deaf people will come in contact with them. This will help raise awareness in the hearing world that there is a whole community of interesting people to be considered when planning things. If you never meet a specific group of people you may not even consider that common things for others might be a problem for them. If all the deaf in an area only use 1 food market because it has a cashier who uses ASL and has good lighting then all the other stores in the area will never realize there is a problem and will miss out on serving those customers. If the deaf in the area start using the other stores the stores will begin to see that they need to make some changes. Keeping apart is ok to a certain extent. Sometimes you just want to be among people who understand you. Everyone has best friends and not best friends but if you want changes and equality it will involve getting out in the world and making yourself known until the world begins to be aware of you. This is the same whether you are talking about a party or talking about changing laws or anything else that can be a problem for deaf people. Sorry such a long post.

 

[rockdrummer]

So what would you do to address the problem. It's easy to point out the obvioius. How would you go about correcting the problem as you see it?

 

[Berry]

So what would you do to address the problem. It's easy to point out the obvioius. How would you go about correcting the problem as you see it?

I don't think the problem can be addressed because it is so deeply rooted. Many people have this drive to feel themselves better than somebody, any body. These people are going to take their lack of self respect out on anybody and everybody they can, deaf people, fat people, other ethnic groups, other beliefs -- And it is very difficult for the person who is shot down not to react negatively to the next person they meet who is in any way like the person/people who disrespected them.

It just snowballs. A white hearing person is disrespectful to a black person and a deaf person. The black person is going to find it harder to be nice to the next white person they meet and the deaf person is going to find it harder to be nice to the next hearing person they meet.

Like arachyd says, I think making friends is the best answer -- But do you go out and make friends with hearing people just because they are hearing? Or deaf people just because they are deaf?

 

[rockdrummer]

With all due respect I disagree. Don't you think that education and awarness would help to reduce the amount of discrimination? I believe it would but I also know that you will never get rid of all of it. I believe there are many people out there that discriminate without even knowing it. Sometimes it's just ignorance which there is hope for.

 

[Kaitin]

Ian: Interesting post so I read more.

Very young deaf/HoH learn hearing people probably sometimes are rude or impatient:

From Child Development, Vol. 52, No. 2 (Jun., 1981), pp. 627-635
doi:10.2307/1129183: Social Interaction in Hearing and Deaf Preschoolers: Successes and Failures in Initiations

Dyadic free play of 32 children (16 deaf, 16 hearing) who attended the same preschool was videotaped on 2 occasions, once with a hearing partner and once with a deaf partner. Each 15-min play session was analyzed in terms of the hearing and deaf children's initiation strategies, their responsiveness to one another's initiations, and the characteristics of successful and unsuccessful initiations. Results indicated that mean interaction duration and proportion of time spent in interaction were greater in "like" (hearing child and hearing partner or deaf child and deaf partner) as opposed to "mixed" dyads. Contrary to previous hypotheses about inadequate communication skills, deaf children were found to be persistent initiators who frequently combined social acts. Underlying similarities were also apparent in the types of initiating acts used by hearing and deaf children. At the same time, however, the deaf preschoolers encountered interaction difficulties. Their initiation attempts were more likely than those of their hearing counterparts to be actively refused. They were also more likely to be recipients of inappropriate initiations, such as gestures or vocalizations to their backs. These results were discussed in terms of previous hypotheses about inferior social skills of the deaf and for their relevance to programs interested in integrating hearing and nonhearing children.

And maybe Rockdrummer is not correct about hope with education but I hope so

From Child Development, Vol. 53, No. 5 (Oct., 1982), pp. 1354-1363
doi:10.2307/1129026: Integrating Hearing and Deaf Preschoolers: An Attempt to Enhance Hearing Children's Interactions with Deaf Peers

In this study, an attempt was made to modify hearing preschoolers' frequent and persistent refusal to interact with profoundly deaf peers. Half of the hearing children involved in a low-key mainstreaming program participated in a special 3-week training program that included discussions about the meaning of deafness, an opportunity to practice communication techniques effective with deaf children, and free-play interactions with deaf children. Prior to the intervention, no differences were found in the treatment and control children's interaction frequencies and duration or in the types of acts used to initiate interactions. Significant differences were found, however, following the heightened involvement. Hearing treatment children began interacting significantly less with the deaf children than did hearing control children. Hearing treatment children also became less responsive to the deaf children's attempts to interact than were hearing control children. While it was hypothesized that increased exposure would result in hearing treatment children using more gestures, touches, and messages incorporating multiple modalities, they came to use significantly fewer of these acts than did the hearing control children. The deaf children remained relatively unaffected by the intervention. These results are discussed in terms of their relevance for other mainstreaming programs and for research on the growth of social competence in general.


I find other articles with similar results so I don't know the answer and still wonder if education is best - if not, what?

---

Also - Ian, interesting article for you maybe - Scandinavian Audiology; Dec98 Supplement 49, Vol. 27, p116-124, 9p: Communication as Social Engagement: Implications for Interactions Between Deaf and Hearing Person

Abstract - Communication involves sending and receiving signals. However, it is also a form of social engagement. Constraints on communication between deaf and hearing persons often result in strained interactions as well as loss of "full" information. In this paper, a meta-ethnographic approach is used to describe the impact of "spoiled" communication on social engagement between deaf and hearing persons.

Full text (PDF)

 

[jillio]

With all due respect I disagree. Don't you think that education and awarness would help to reduce the amount of discrimination? I believe it would but I also know that you will never get rid of all of it. I believe there are many people out there that discriminate without even knowing it. Sometimes it's just ignorance which there is hope for.

Hasn't seemed to work so far. Despite the amount of evidence available tot he contrary, some people hold onto thier ignorance with every ounce of strength they have. Look at it this way....Civil Rights Legislation was passed in 1964......still the KKK exists. African Americans have become prominent in every facet of American culture and still there are those that believe them to be genetically inferior.

 

[Berry]

Hasn't seemed to work so far. Despite the amount of evidence available tot he contrary, some people hold onto thier ignorance with every ounce of strength they have.

Unfortunately I see the same thing.

 

[jillio]

Unfortunately I see the same thing.

Perplexing, isn't it?

 

[Interpretrator]

There's a whole lot of generalizing going on in this thread.

 

[Berry]

There's a whole lot of generalizing going on in this thread.

Not so sure generalizing in and of itself is a bad thing. It can be argued that the entire fields of statistics, studies, and polls (All of which I tend to distrust and question) are all based on the concept that generalizing a group has value.

Where generalizing fails is when someone decides that because a specific individual is a member of a group they share all the traits of that group. The individual may share very few if any of the traits or beliefs associated with the group they "belong to."

 

[jillio]

Not so sure generalizing in and of itself is a bad thing. It can be argued that the entire fields of statistics, studies, and polls (All of which I tend to distrust and question) are all based on the concept that generalizing a group has value.

Where generalizing fails is when someone decides that because a specific individual is a member of a group they share all the traits of that group. The individual may share very few if any of the traits or beliefs associated with the group they "belong to."

Quite true. This is when generalizable traits and values of a group, or applicable historical reasons for behavior, become stereoptypes.

 

[ssnorwaygirl]

Wow. This was an interesting read. As a hearing impaired woman, and that means I don't fall into either the hearing or deaf world per se, it sure is insightful. I've been discriminated by both groups, so at my age I've pretty much chalked it up to ignorance on both parts. I want to go into this post, but it will take up some time and I am off to work. No, I don't sign, yes, I speak, yes, I am 70% hearing impaired, yes I was mainstreamed, no, I have not been around the deaf community a lot because I don't sign and since I am hearing impaired it can be difficult for me to understand when being spoken to, yes, hearing people can be and are rude no matter what education level they are and the topper is yes, I hate it when they find out I am hearing impaired and then act overtly nice. Damn, I hate that. What I do find myself capable of, and wonder if anyone else here has this little situation, is, do you find yourself capable of "reading" people" like, making up for your hearing loss? It's like a blessing and a curse all wrapped up into one.
R

 

[rockdrummer]

Hasn't seemed to work so far. Despite the amount of evidence available tot he contrary, some people hold onto thier ignorance with every ounce of strength they have. Look at it this way....Civil Rights Legislation was passed in 1964......still the KKK exists. African Americans have become prominent in every facet of American culture and still there are those that believe them to be genetically inferior.

Where are the education and awareness programs? In my entire life I have never encountered one. Not one! Ignorance is not knowing. Stupididy is knowing and still choosing to discriminate. Once someone is aware I would not consider them ignorant.