When does A N Other child need support

[RoseRodent]

I am trying this thread again, please please do not reply with any advice for me about my situation or my own family, this is entirely not what I want to do. What I want to know is, at what level of deafness would you consider that a child (ANY child) ought to qualify for placement at a special unit or special school, assuming the parents want them to be placed there?

Please, this is not about any individual child, you may refer to your own if you wish, but the point of the discussion is when do you think a child should be allowed a dhh placement if they want one? The law here in the UK is that anyone who wants a mainstream placement is (theoretically!!!!) entitled to one, but if the authority says no to a special unit or special school placement then you cannot have one. Do you think it is right that authorities should have the final say, or should that go to parents?

 

[Miss-Delectable]

I think if a child is labelled as HOH then he/she should be eligible for a placement in a deaf school or deaf facility if it's wanted.

I really believe that the parents should have a final say in where their kids should go for schooling because each have different idea of which program is right for their kid. Besides the authority do not know your child therefore they shouldn't be the one with the final say on the matter of child's educational needs.

I remember one deaf family had a HOH daughter who could be mainstreamed if she wanted but she chose to attend a school for the deaf, and the school could have turned her down, but her parents persauded the school to accept their daughter because they believed that she'd benefit more academically and socially because of the resources available etc.

 

[GrendelQ]

In the US, I believe that children ages 3 through 21 who meet the definition of a child with a disability that adversely impacts the child’s ability to learn are eligible for special education services. The nature of those services is determined based on a child's individual needs by a team including parents and professionals. 'Adverse educational impact' includes academic performance AND social and emotional functioning.

I think that any level of deafness that adversely affects a child's ability to learn would qualify a child to receive appropiate services. My child is profoundly deaf, so she easily and immediately received the whole enchilada in services, but even if she had a mild HL, if her learning was disrupted or made difficult, I'd make certain she had every service available to accommodate her needs.

 

[jillio]

Those are the criteria; however, they are quite often not applied as intended. They are simply guidelines, and are quite subjective at that. That is why so many parents end up arguing a child's IEP to provide for additional services. Unfortuately, even in the States, being profoundly deaf does not insure that a child will receive necessary and appropriate services in the education system.

 

[sallylou]

Agreed. Any need different from the "norm" probably will not be met very well in a "regular" public school. I had to take matters into my own hand to get what my kid needed. A large number of students, including several "mainstreamed" students, make it impossible for teachers to meet the needs of all students. It's not that teachers don't want to do that. Teachers have a hard job with little support.

 

[KristinaB]

I would wish that a child could get the necessary education they would need as early as possible. Speaking for myself, though I know others were in the same boat as me, I wish that I had the opportunity to get the kind of education I needed. My parents were told, quite emphatically, that they were NOT to seek any kind of ASL education or special schooling for me. This was the advice of the pediatrician, the audiologist, The Florida Speech & Hearing Center and The Watson Clinic, both in Lakeland, FL. While I was mainstreamed, there were no services offered in the public schools for children with hearing loss of any degree. The only thing they could do, was give me hearing aids and have me sit in the "center-front row" of every class. I am the only person in the history of my school board who has failed a music theory class while getting the highest scores on all tests and homework assignments. My hearing loss was bad enough and at that time I had no hearing aids and the teacher had a speech problem (had to use a little box for talking) and I could hear him as he spoke no louder than a whisper. I got my assignments from a classmate, but the final test was totally oral and that's what I failed and made me fail the class.

I am only glad things have changed a little for today's children. The same school district is now having all teachers learn basic ASL due to most of the children from the local "special" school being mainstreamed. Those whose hearing loss is profound or have vision problems as well are being referred to the Florida School of the Deaf and Blind. Quite a long distance from my area to St. Augustine.

Sorry I rambled on. Didn't really mean to.

 

[deafdyke]

A large number of students, including several "mainstreamed" students, make it impossible for teachers to meet the needs of all students.

Agreed. Mainstream is too one size fits all. Even GIFTED kids often struggle in the mainstream!
Also, most special ed options available in a mainstream school are targeted towards learning disabled kids. Teachers only get a bare minimum of training on how to teach kids with hearing losses, visual issues and other issues. If the kids don't respond well to those methods, kids with a lot of potential get lumped in with the kids who are in special ed b/c it's a dumping ground.
Many of those kids could REALLY suceed and REALLY thrive at a deaf school or a deaf program, rather then paddling around in the mainstream. We have mainstreamed disabled kids for years and years....and yet their acheivement levels aren't that great. That is b/c of the "one size fits all" mentality.
The only kids with "classic" disabilites who should be automaticly "regular school regular classes" mainstreamed, are the kids who are very mildly affected by their disabilty (eg they have unilateral hearing or visual losses or other very mild disabilties) or the kids who after attending a specialized program have shown that they have the abilty to handle the mainstream.....or kids who are postlingal (they still make up 5% of the pediatric dhh population...and even then that should be on a case by case basis)
I do think that initially, (preschool and kindergarten) kids need to do a split placement, so they can find the best placement for them. I am SO sick of experts and parents automaticly assuming that the mainstream is the best or some sort of utopia.
We need to get back to educational placement on a case by case basis, NOT thinking " oh they're too hearing/sighted fill in the blank" for whatever type of special education.

 

[RoseRodent]

I found out the other day that there are parents so desperate for a DHH school place in a particular school (the one where my daughter goes to outreach nursery sessions) that they pay full private fees. Unbelievable that the system can turn them down for a place when the child already goes there and has glowing reports and the child themselves reports being much more comfortable there.

Also, most special ed options available in a mainstream school are targeted towards learning disabled kids. Teachers only get a bare minimum of training on how to teach kids with hearing losses, visual issues and other issues. If the kids don't respond well to those methods, kids with a lot of potential get lumped in with the kids who are in special ed b/c it's a dumping ground.

Totally. I know far too many people who are told their child cannot be fitted into any special classes because it's been taken over by kids with learning disabilities. Obviously there are too few learning disabilities places, so they place these kids into the HI and speech and language classes too, using any slight speech and language issue as an excuse to qualify for placement.

Having recently trained as a teacher I can say there is buckets of theoretical teaching on learning disabilities, particularly autism, because teachers were constantly complaining they didn't know enough about it. But you get no practical placement, so that knowledge and training just dies out, and also you are dependent on the one person training you actually knowing their stuff, and that they know it from real experiences not their own theoretical training. Some of the inclusion stuff is uber-patronising, like we can "include" a "child in a wheelchair" in a football game in PE by letting him be referee. Or we could actually let the kid play football like everyone else, or if he can't then how about nobody plays football and the whole class does something they can all do? They are still talking about integration and confusing it with inclusion.

I am SO sick of experts and parents automaticly assuming that the mainstream is the best or some sort of utopia.
We need to get back to educational placement on a case by case basis, NOT thinking " oh they're too hearing/sighted fill in the blank" for whatever type of special education.

So familiar, people are usually horrified as a first reaction to the fact we might want a non-mainstream placement for our daughter, they see it as a last resort for kids who are "severely disabled" - whatever that is. We are constantly told that she is not disabled enough: what is that as a concept? Why are children judged by numbers on a medical report? Sometimes the difference between "severe learning difficulties" and "moderate learning difficulties" is one of the parlance of the paediatrician preparing the report, but only the one whose paed writes the important keyword "severe" is going to have a hope at a placement. It's all about if you are blind/deaf/whatever "enough" - you're right. And they do that before meeting the child or doing the assessment, so it's assumed that 70dBHL is always more disabling than 60dBHL, even though some schools can disabled a child with 40dBHL to the point of not coping at all. Come to think of it, maybe that is the key, that only "qualifying" or "not qualifying" is the point of the assesment, they do not and cannot look at the quality of the alternative provision to compare the specialist provision against it, you are in or you are out.

Actually, I reckon the places are for kids that teachers are frightened of teaching, that they hope to God they will not find in their mainstream classes, not for the chidlren for whom they are most suitable placements. And going to mainstream is looked upon as if it were an achievement, like getting into a top university, gosh, now he/she can go to mainstream school no problems, what a successful operation. Sheesh. I wouldn't want her put into a school which would lower her achievement potential and let her behaviour slip because she's "special" but one with facilities appropriate to her needs should not be considered as a horror placement.

There are also kids having to go to the special schools in their holidays to learn daily living skills because mainstream has forced them to have adult help all day to keep them "safe" all day, the blind school has a waiting list for children wanting to learn how to get around. Now that's sad.

 

[deafdyke]

While I was mainstreamed, there were no services offered in the public schools for children with hearing loss of any degree. The only thing they could do, was give me hearing aids and have me sit in the "center-front row" of every class.

yes exactly.
Most public schools are not set up to adquatly service kids with more traditional disablities.
Regional/magnet programs can help sometimes, but I really think we need to stop automaticly assuming that regular neighborhood school placement with minimal accomondations is some sort of utopia. Yes, it should be available. Some kids may actually thrive there....but a lot won't, simply b/c a public school is very one size fits all. I have a 50% chance of having hoh kids. When I do, they will not automaticly be mainstreamed.

There are also kids having to go to the special schools in their holidays to learn daily living skills because mainstream has forced them to have adult help all day to keep them "safe" all day, the blind school has a waiting list for children wanting to learn how to get around. Now that's sad.

That IS sad. Well at least mainstreamed kids have the opertunity to go to special schools over vacations. I know in Texas and some other states, they have short term placements where kids attend the school for focusing on things like academics etc.

 

[rockdrummer]

I am trying this thread again, please please do not reply with any advice for me about my situation or my own family, this is entirely not what I want to do. What I want to know is, at what level of deafness would you consider that a child (ANY child) ought to qualify for placement at a special unit or special school, assuming the parents want them to be placed there?

Please, this is not about any individual child, you may refer to your own if you wish, but the point of the discussion is when do you think a child should be allowed a dhh placement if they want one? The law here in the UK is that anyone who wants a mainstream placement is (theoretically!!!!) entitled to one, but if the authority says no to a special unit or special school placement then you cannot have one. Do you think it is right that authorities should have the final say, or should that go to parents?

The answer in my opinion is that any deaf child should be placed in a DHH program. If you mainstream a deaf child most likley they will fall far behind. Why... BECAUSE THEY CANT HEAR!!

 

[shel90]

The answer in my opinion is that any deaf child should be placed in a DHH program. If you mainstream a deaf child most likley they will fall far behind. Why... BECAUSE THEY CANT HEAR!!

TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!

 

[nyyankees154]

OK, if the parents want their child in a DHH school system and a doctor has filled out a paper stating yes, that child is HoH or deaf, then yes, that child should have a slot in that school.

Also, on the other hand, the school system don't need to be at a lower standards as well. They should be pushing the child to the level and standard that all the other children their age are held at. It will benefit the HOH or deaf child more that way. I not sure how the other schools work, but I know, and my wife can tell you, the Deaf and Blind school she was at didn't teach that well. She didn't know her grammar too well, and she lacked a lot other fields cause her school felt that they don't need to know that. She had to learn how to budget, read higher then a 6th grade level and cook after high school. Her school felt that teaching only in ASL and at the lower level will only do what they needed to do for them.

Before thinking that the DHH slot is better, just check out the school 1st and putting a Deaf or HOH child in a public school is a bad idea, it is not the case in a lot of them. There are a few, if not a lot, that has made it through a hearing school and came out a lot better then if they where in a DHH school

 

[deafdyke]

The answer in my opinion is that any deaf child should be placed in a DHH program.

I do think that it should be mandatory for kids to start out in Dhh programs, and then graduate to a regular school regular classes placement. Kids could also attend hearing school as part of a split placement, while they are in the dhh program.
b

ut I know, and my wife can tell you, the Deaf and Blind school she was at didn't teach that well. She didn't know her grammar too well, and she lacked a lot other fields cause her school felt that they don't need to know that. She had to learn how to budget, read higher then a 6th grade level and cook after high school. Her school felt that teaching only in ASL and at the lower level will only do what they needed to do for them.

How old is your wife? Granted some Deaf schools are underfunded or have low expectations....but many don't. I do think that virtually ALL Deaf schools should have a formal independant living program for dhh teens/young adults. That could help with the kids who are intellectucally delayed too!

Before thinking that the DHH slot is better, just check out the school 1st and putting a Deaf or HOH child in a public school is a bad idea, it is not the case in a lot of them. There are a few, if not a lot, that has made it through a hearing school and came out a lot better then if they where in a DHH school

Well I think what we're saying is that while some deaf schools can be bad, public schools can be really bad too.
We're pushing for kids to be placed in Dhh specific educational programs....A formal mainstream program can be awesome. We just don't think that most dhh kids should be automaticly "regular classes, regular school with minimal accomondations" mainstreamed.

 

[RoseRodent]

Reading another thread reminded me of the bit where they so often confuse the only things the writer of an IEP can offer with all that is required. So, to save money or because you have a tricky hearing loss, they just say all they can do for you is place you front row centre, and the teacher translates that in their heads to "child will have no problems so long as she sits front centre" and carries on expecting you to be able to hear in the gym hall, assembly hall, whatever, puts on non-subtitled videos that you will be tested on (I missed 100% of sex ed because it was entirely on videos so the teacher didn't have to speak about it) all that sort of thing.

And that whatever is on the report from the "expert" will definitely help, so never mind that front centre you cannot hear the other children, and your experience becomes "OK, does anyone know the capital of Australia? Yes Johnny? That's right Johnny, now today we are going to talk about Australia, what are some animal in Australia? Good Gillian yes, Frank? Oh yes, that's a good answer, well done" - WTH did they SAY??! (Teachers have recently been told to stop repeating the answers children give because it apparently invalidates their answers and teaches children they need not bother listening to each other, only the teacher)

And that's if the teacher stands still. What is front and centre if the teacher then walks to the back of the room and stands there to talk for the next hour?

There is a big difference between "This child has a lot of needs that we cannot meet in our environment thus we have listed only the need we can meet" and "This child has only one need". You think in a DHH program the child would not benefit from being connected into a classroom talk system? No, it's just because if it doesn't exist and costs money nobody is going to recommend it, or the child is not "deaf enough" to absolutely definitely need it, but if it were there anyway then your moderately HH child would definitely stand to benefit from at least trying it. They are never going to advise a practial rebuild of the school to improve acoustics, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful.

Oh, and there is the social thing that everyone else knows where you are at to be DHH so they don't just ignore you outside the classroom or put on events in noisy, dark places or try to talk to you with their mouths full in a lunch room full of clattering plates, and people don't pick on the child for their equipment. I definitely think that it's a job for the education of the mainstream not to pick on people who have any form of difference rather than take different children elsewhere, but who wants to be the trailblazer? The system is not ready for inclusion yet, so it's not acceptable to chuck the kids in first then work out the wrinkles!

 

[deafdyke]

you cannot hear the other children,

YES!!!! About 90% of learning in the classroom is incidental learning. So a kid just gets an FM device and can only hear the teacher. That's really not learning. That's more listening to someone drone on and on......Kids learn best when they can easily and actively interact!

The system is not ready for inclusion yet, so it's not acceptable to chuck the kids in first then work out the wrinkles!

YES. AMEN! As I've said, kids who only need minimal accomondations to thrive, do decently in the mainstream.......but, we've been trying to "work out the wrinkles" for public school placement for years and years now.....still hasn't worked!

 

[RoseRodent]

I do think that it should be mandatory for kids to start out in Dhh programs, and then graduate to a regular school regular classes placement. Kids could also attend hearing school as part of a split placement, while they are in the dhh program.

This seems to be the new model in the authority up the road from ours. Sadly it is not the one to which my daughter is assigned, but we may move! There are 3 schools on a single site, the Deaf and/or blind school, the mainstream primary and the mainstream secondary. The children are assigned an automatic split placement in the primary/DHH or secondary/DHH. The uniform is the uniform of the mainstream primary and secondary, the DHH program doesn't have a uniform of its own.

The children are individually assessed for how much time they should spend in the DHH environment and how much in the mainstream, and while there is still a culture of "progress towards the mainstream" the decisions are made by a properly specialist team who know the child well - their DHH program teachers. Funding-wise it makes little difference, as a 90/10 placement is still a special ed placement so there is little pressure to get the child out faster unless they can become 100% mainstreamed, whereupon they will receive their support visits from the staff at the DHH program which is on site (for quicker and easier equipment repairs) and are people the child knows.

It's an expanded model of the "special unit" and it remains to be seen how successful it will be, but it sounds interesting at least. How much you attend the mainstream is personal, not a policy decision like it is in the units. A child in a unit must go to assembly in the mainstream because it's on the list of policies, but in this situation the child is assessed for everything bit by bit - he can attend PE on Monday but Thursday's PE is too hard, he will take PE in the unit. Without the split placement aspect it's an admin nightmare, but if you are talking about staff who know the chilren well then it's very easy to meet and say can Robert manage your art class next week? Falls short of the aims of inclusionism because perhaps you could argue that if Robert can't cope with next week's class then don't run that class, but it's not always possible with every child, and it would have saved me hours listening mystified to French cassettes!

Elsewhere, the shortage of overall specialist places is leading to misuse, and children being wrongly assigned (and they are assigned, there is little to no choice, you are "lucky" to get anything). The speech and language units in the mainstream are full to overflowing with children with additional complex needs, the special schools are under pressure to transfer kids there, the deaf schools take up the slack and end up with a number of kids who were fudged in there because they have a hearing aid but their needs really lie elsewhere, and there is a mish-mash. Kids are moved from pillar to post because they keep getting the placements wrong. Most classes in the Deaf school didn't suit one boy I know because the other kids were all deaf but neurotypical. He was deaf and autistic. So next he was plonked into an autistic class where they couldn't cope with his deafness. They sent him to another deaf school where he was taught some communication, but found it socially difficult because he was the only child in the class with a significant learning disability. So he was uprooted yet again and finally got a placement which suits him in a unit with other autistic boys with speech and language difficulties. But it took till he was 11 years old, he's only got 5 years in school left, he cannot get those years back. Too many kids are sent to DHH schools as a "placement of last resort" and by the time they find a good match they have been traumatised! Parents don't want DHH places because they are full of kids with other major needs where their child might be the only one studying for exams, it's a mess.

Did I blether much? (Do you have that word over the pond?)

 

[deafdyke]

is seems to be the new model in the authority up the road from ours. Sadly it is not the one to which my daughter is assigned, but we may move! There are 3 schools on a single site, the Deaf and/or blind school, the mainstream primary and the mainstream secondary. The children are assigned an automatic split placement in the primary/DHH or secondary/DHH. The uniform is the uniform of the mainstream primary and secondary, the DHH program doesn't have a uniform of its own.

The children are individually assessed for how much time they should spend in the DHH environment and how much in the mainstream, and while there is still a culture of "progress towards the mainstream" the decisions are made by a properly specialist team who know the child well - their DHH program teachers.

Oooooo.... I'd so move for that. It sounds like a formal dhh/blind school program within a hearing school....and I have to say I totally agree with you that there's too much of a mismash. There needs to be dhh and blind/low vision ed programs specificly for kids with milder issues, as well as classes/programs specificly for kids at the Deaf and Blind schools.