Try every HA before CI! This guy now scores 80% speech with HA!

[deafdude1]

The story that Overthepond linked to me:

I was on my way to deliver new hearing instruments to a man named Jim whom I have never met before. I was thumbing through his file to get to know him and found out that he had gotten hearing instruments about a month ago and returned. He went to a popular retail hearing aid chain and decided that he wasn’t hearing any better with his new instruments.

I noticed that his word recognition was about 20%. Wow! I thought this will be a huge challenge. Upon arrival I was trying to have a conversation with Jim and you could tell he wasn’t hearing what what was said. He was very somber, but who wouldn’t be, he couldn’t participate in anything that was said.

Well, he was fit with the Phonak Naida V’s and even though I have had such great luck with these, I was scared. When I turned them on and started to talk with him he could answer everything I said. I started walking around the room and from 15ft away with his back to me he could answer my questions. I was floored, but he wasn’t! His wife talked to him behind his back and he could answer every question she asked, butt still no reaction. I told him that I was happier then he was. His wife said ” he has been so disappointed with hearing aids that we can’t get excited anymore.” So, on that note I hoped and prayed that he would do well.

I went for his followup about four days later and when I walked in he was smiling. He sat down and said, ” I think I am going to keep these.” I asked him what made him come to this conclusion. He said, ” I can hear my wife and I can hear my dinner guests, but this was the first time I have heard the preacher at church in years.” Whoaaaa, he blew me away!

His word recognition was 20%, but after four days later and using some word exercises his recognition went up to 80%. Amazing!
What else can I say. “What a day!”

 

[deafskeptic]

Are you related to DD by any chance? :P

 

[overthepond]

You are forgetting vital piece of information that didn't come with the post i gave you..

We don't know his hearing loss and His hearing history.

He could have been late deafen.

 

[lovezebras]

That's not surprising that deafdude left out information since he's trying to make ha's be the end all and be all of what every Ddeaf/hoh person should wear over CI

 

[Tousi]

I haven't been following this but do you mean to say this dude doesn't know that one cannot (last I heard) get a CI unless one is beyond the help of hearing aids?

 

[lovezebras]

Tousi- do u mean the OP or the man in the article?

 

[Tousi]

Tousi- do u mean the OP or the man in the article?

The OP--I've seen the name here a few times....

 

[deafdude1]

You are forgetting vital piece of information that didn't come with the post i gave you..

We don't know his hearing loss and His hearing history.

He could have been late deafen.

That article didn't mention any of this except that the first time he upgraded his HA, it didn't help. He then upgraded again a month later and his speech went from 20% to 80%. We don't know his audiogram or history, only that it's proven that the right HAs can benefit some people and his was a case study. All im saying is that everyone should try every HA before CI and from reading the CI blogs, some have failed to do this. I just did the math for one CI case and if my math is right, the best HA would have given that person *exactly* the same percentage of speech comphrension(per the amount of access to the speech banana) as her aided CI scores. Her hearing loss was moderate in the low frequencies which count for the largest % of environmental sounds and speech. She just traded the lows for the highs and per my math, it evened out. Ill post more details on my blog soon.

 

[LuciaDisturbed]

That article didn't mention any of this except that the first time he upgraded his HA, it didn't help. He then upgraded again a month later and his speech went from 20% to 80%. We don't know his audiogram or history, only that it's proven that the right HAs can benefit some people and his was a case study. All im saying is that everyone should try every HA before CI and from reading the CI blogs, some have failed to do this. I just did the math for one CI case and if my math is right, the best HA would have given that person *exactly* the same percentage of speech comphrension(per the amount of access to the speech banana) as her aided CI scores. Her hearing loss was moderate in the low frequencies which count for the largest % of environmental sounds and speech. She just traded the lows for the highs and per my math, it evened out. Ill post more details on my blog soon.

Well, since I had already lost nearly all of my hearing by the time I was only 9, trying every single HA out on the market that existed would not work out for me at all and would be a huge colossal waste of money and time for me and my family. Remember, my audiogram that was provided to the Lion's Camp director when I was 9 or 10 years old showed my loss at 115 dB already and I think I had this big a loss already for several years as I could last remember being able to hear a good number of sounds before I was even 6 years old while in the hearing test booth and have not really heard much ever since. Last time I ever heard a sound unaided was in high school and that was because my foster family had the most loudest breed of dogs ever - Basset hounds! I could hear them quite well (by my standards anyway - I was rather surprised I could hear them when I arrived at the foster home) if I was on the same floor as them for two reasons - their really loud barking and the acoustics or whatever it is called that very old houses often have. I could even hear them faintly if I was on the second floor and they were on the first floor. But not in the basement at all (thank goodness as my bedroom was in the basement and I would NOT be happy being constantly woken up by the 3 loud adult dogs and the whole litter of loud puppies - 8 very loud dogs altogether!) Then, when I went through the CI candidacy process, I only heard ONE single sound at the VERY end of the hearing test WITH the CI clinic's BEST HA that existed. ONE sound, and I don't even know what it was. It would have NOT been worth it at all for my own family to spend all their money on HAs as my family was a VERY dirt poor family before my own mother died - my dad only began to earn a LOT of money while I was in middle school (my mom died when I was two months shy of my 10th birthday). My dad did have insurance from his job, but they did not cover HAs. I am not even sure how my family were able to afford to get the ONE pair of bodyworn HAs and then the ONE pair of BTE HAs, but the insurance company probably would have covered the CI (I think). Had my dad asked me (I would have said YES) and I had been implanted back then it would save me a lot of time from trying out all the HAs that existed back then. I respect the Deaf community's opinion on CIs 100%, they are entirely 100% entitled to their opinions but I really wish that my dad had not allowed their opinions to influence his decision whether to ASK ME if I wanted to be implanted or not as it was my body and not the Deaf community's body, and I was fully capable of asking many questions and saying NO if I did not want the CI. He could have sat down with me at the table and asked me if I wanted to be implanted at all and he could explain the risks of surgery. I was already old enough to understand the risks of major surgeries in general (I was a very intelligent kid, apparently, from what many people have told me) and I have had already had several MAJOR surgeries way before I was even FIVE YEARS OLD for my birth defect with my hip and other medical issues plus one plastic surgery to fix my right ear that was half bitten off by a dog (whose idiot owner was dumb enough to tie the dog on a leash UNSUPERVISED right next to the grocery store door where people pass through - I was right next to the dog and he bit me as I was leaving the store - I was 4 years old then and I still remember that day clearly), so I already knew the risks, and the surgeries I would say NO FUCKING WAY to are heart and brain surgeries unless it was to SAVE MY LIFE ONLY - NO WAY if it was not to save my life as they are the most riskiest - and to clarify for everybody and to debunk the myth - CI surgery is NOT a brain surgery - they do not even touch your brain at all...if they did I would have said NO FUCKING WAY and ran away screaming bloody murder! The only implants that helps with hearing where the brain is touched at all is the ABI - Auditory Brainstem Implant and the PABI - Penetrating Electrode Auditory Brainstem Implant (PABI) - entirely different story from the Cochlear Implant and ABIs are not even as good as a CI anyway and I am not so sure about the PABIs as that is even newer technology, it seems it's slightly better than the existing ABI, but still nowhere as good as a CI so I would not even bother. But I would say NO to the ABI and the PABI no matter what, anyway, as brain surgeries scare me. I do not want anyone fucking with my brain (unless it is to save my life) and end up brain damaged - my intelligence is much more important than my hearing, thank you very much! Plus there is hardly very much information available on the internet regarding the the ABI and the PABI and I can't even find out what a patient with an ABI or a PABI would expect to hear in regard of decibels. Sure, there are tons of links in Google but they all say the generally same thing.

And for those who are born without an auditory nerve, there is totally NO point in trying every single HA that exists as they would not do a damn thing - there would be no way to get sound from outside the head to the brain as the area between that is gone. It's like you trying to get through a brick wall to the other side and hitting the wall every single time you try to magically go through the wall - BAM - BAM - BAM - IMPOSSIBLE! Only way they can hear anything is if they get an ABI or a PABI as it bypasses where the auditory nerve would be and goes right to the nerve center on the brainstem (cochlear nucleus).

So I would not say that EVERYONE should try HAs, just that SOME people who don't have profound hearing losses should try HAs, they will not benefit 100% of the profoundly Deaf population - hearing losses can vary a lot and they are not all the same even if they are profound even with the same average dB loss across the board. HAs will not help some certain people at all ever, such as those who are born without auditory nerves and others just have either been born with or quickly lost all their hearing after birth to the point where the loss just too profound for even the best and the powerful HAs that ever existed. Just no point and a lot of wasted money. I would not use the word "everyone".

I want to say more stuff but I got to get to bed. It's already 6 am. I'll save it for later.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Well, since I had already lost nearly all of my hearing by the time I was only 9, trying every single HA out on the market that existed would not work out for me at all and would be a huge colossal waste of money and time for me and my family. Remember, my audiogram that was provided to the Lion's Camp director when I was 9 or 10 years old showed my loss at 115 dB already and I think I had this big a loss already for several years as I could last remember being able to hear a good number of sounds before I was even 6 years old while in the hearing test booth and have not really heard much ever since. Last time I ever heard a sound unaided was in high school and that was because my foster family had the most loudest breed of dogs ever - Basset hounds! I could hear them quite well (by my standards anyway - I was rather surprised I could hear them when I arrived at the foster home) if I was on the same floor as them for two reasons - their really loud barking and the acoustics or whatever it is called that very old houses often have. I could even hear them faintly if I was on the second floor and they were on the first floor. But not in the basement at all (thank goodness as my bedroom was in the basement and I would NOT be happy being constantly woken up by the 3 loud adult dogs and the whole litter of loud puppies - 8 very loud dogs altogether!) Then, when I went through the CI candidacy process, I only heard ONE single sound at the VERY end of the hearing test WITH the CI clinic's BEST HA that existed. ONE sound, and I don't even know what it was. It would have NOT been worth it at all for my own family to spend all their money on HAs as my family was a VERY dirt poor family before my own mother died - my dad only began to earn a LOT of money while I was in middle school (my mom died when I was two months shy of my 10th birthday). My dad did have insurance from his job, but they did not cover HAs. I am not even sure how my family were able to afford to get the ONE pair of bodyworn HAs and then the ONE pair of BTE HAs, but the insurance company probably would have covered the CI (I think). Had my dad asked me (I would have said YES) and I had been implanted back then it would save me a lot of time from trying out all the HAs that existed back then. I respect the Deaf community's opinion on CIs 100%, they are entirely 100% entitled to their opinions but I really wish that my dad had not allowed their opinions to influence his decision whether to ASK ME if I wanted to be implanted or not as it was my body and not the Deaf community's body, and I was fully capable of asking many questions and saying NO if I did not want the CI. He could have sat down with me at the table and asked me if I wanted to be implanted at all and he could explain the risks of surgery. I was already old enough to understand the risks of major surgeries in general (I was a very intelligent kid, apparently, from what many people have told me) and I have had already had several MAJOR surgeries way before I was even FIVE YEARS OLD for my birth defect with my hip and other medical issues plus one plastic surgery to fix my right ear that was half bitten off by a dog (whose idiot owner was dumb enough to tie the dog on a leash UNSUPERVISED right next to the grocery store door where people pass through - I was right next to the dog and he bit me as I was leaving the store - I was 4 years old then and I still remember that day clearly), so I already knew the risks, and the surgeries I would say NO FUCKING WAY to are heart and brain surgeries unless it was to SAVE MY LIFE ONLY - NO WAY if it was not to save my life as they are the most riskiest - and to clarify for everybody and to debunk the myth - CI surgery is NOT a brain surgery - they do not even touch your brain at all...if they did I would have said NO FUCKING WAY and ran away screaming bloody murder! The only implants that helps with hearing where the brain is touched at all is the ABI - Auditory Brainstem Implant and the PABI - Penetrating Electrode Auditory Brainstem Implant (PABI) - entirely different story from the Cochlear Implant and ABIs are not even as good as a CI anyway and I am not so sure about the PABIs as that is even newer technology, it seems it's slightly better than the existing ABI, but still nowhere as good as a CI so I would not even bother. But I would say NO to the ABI and the PABI no matter what, anyway, as brain surgeries scare me. I do not want anyone fucking with my brain (unless it is to save my life) and end up brain damaged - my intelligence is much more important than my hearing, thank you very much! Plus there is hardly very much information available on the internet regarding the the ABI and the PABI and I can't even find out what a patient with an ABI or a PABI would expect to hear in regard of decibels. Sure, there are tons of links in Google but they all say the generally same thing.

And for those who are born without an auditory nerve, there is totally NO point in trying every single HA that exists as they would not do a damn thing - there would be no way to get sound from outside the head to the brain as the area between that is gone. It's like you trying to get through a brick wall to the other side and hitting the wall every single time you try to magically go through the wall - BAM - BAM - BAM - IMPOSSIBLE! Only way they can hear anything is if they get an ABI or a PABI as it bypasses where the auditory nerve would be and goes right to the nerve center on the brainstem (cochlear nucleus).

So I would not say that EVERYONE should try HAs, just that SOME people who don't have profound hearing losses should try HAs, they will not benefit 100% of the profoundly Deaf population - hearing losses can vary a lot and they are not all the same even if they are profound even with the same average dB loss across the board. HAs will not help some certain people at all ever, such as those who are born without auditory nerves and others just have either been born with or quickly lost all their hearing after birth to the point where the loss just too profound for even the best and the powerful HAs that ever existed. Just no point and a lot of wasted money. I would not use the word "everyone".

I want to say more stuff but I got to get to bed. It's already 6 am. I'll save it for later.

I happen to agree that for alot of people trying every hearing aid out there is probably time consuming; especially if a person's hearing loss is profound. It's like "Why bother?". I find it maddening for people to constantly insist upon multiple hearing aid trials when it's been proven that the person cannot benefit from them. In this situation, certainly a cochlear implant would be the way the go if the person wants to hear.

 

[deafskeptic]

As the majoritiy of my hearing loss was already in the 115s and I had servere recruitment, trying out hearing aaids would have been a waste of my time. My recruitment issues made it nearly impossible to wear my HA.

 

[lovezebras]

See deafdude from these posters who now have CI's they know first hand that you can't try every HA out there for you. That it's time consuming, money spent, and not to mention quite pointless. Most people GO for a CI in the first place because there not hearing with their hearing aids, if they are profound already than guaranteed they already have good quality hearing aids for their loss, so if that's not working then they are not going to try 4 or 5 other powerful hearing aids, thats just stupid.

 

[deafdude1]

Well, since I had already lost nearly all of my hearing by the time I was only 9, trying every single HA out on the market that existed would not work out for me at all and would be a huge colossal waste of money and time for me and my family. Remember, my audiogram that was provided to the Lion's Camp director when I was 9 or 10 years old showed my loss at 115 dB already and I think I had this big a loss already for several years

I agree with you. The issue I have is those with a huge amount of residual hearing who fail to try other HAs before getting CI. Basically anyone with equal or better hearing than me really should be trying several different HAs and id be surprised if they aren't getting enough benefit. A loss starting at 75db at 250Hz is severe, not profound. My audiologists consider me severely HOH, although some do say severe-profound sloping loss.

Last time I ever heard a sound unaided was in high school and that was because my foster family had the most loudest breed of dogs ever - Basset hounds! I could hear them quite well (by my standards anyway - I was rather surprised I could hear them when I arrived at the foster home) if I was on the same floor as them for two reasons - their really loud barking and the acoustics or whatever it is called that very old houses often have. I could even hear them faintly if I was on the second floor and they were on the first floor. But not in the basement at all (thank goodness as my bedroom was in the basement and I would NOT be happy being constantly woken up by the 3 loud adult dogs and the whole litter of loud puppies - 8 very loud dogs altogether!)

Was it actual sound you heard and not just vibrations? Wouldn't such loud barking cause the owners and the hounds themselves to go deaf? The hounds would need to bark at 140db SPL at 1 foot for you to hear them at 114db from a distance of 20 feet. I would be surprised if those dogs are really capable of barking at 140db! And if they are, this would instantly destroy the hearing of anyone not already deaf.

I respect the Deaf community's opinion on CIs 100%, they are entirely 100% entitled to their opinions but I really wish that my dad had not allowed their opinions to influence his decision whether to ASK ME if I wanted to be implanted or not as it was my body and not the Deaf community's body, and I was fully capable of asking many questions and saying NO if I did not want the CI. He could have sat down with me at the table and asked me if I wanted to be implanted at all and he could explain the risks of surgery. I was already old enough to understand the risks of major surgeries in general

If you were asking for CI and saying yes, you were not being "forced" at all. If I had a deaf child that asked for CI and the child was informed of the pros, cons and risks, id go ahead with the candidacy process. I however am against forcing babies and young children unless they are so profoundly deaf no HA will ever help. As for ABI, if it's that risky I would rather stay deaf and wait for better technology than risk brain damage to hear a few faint environmental sounds.

So I would not say that EVERYONE should try HAs, just that SOME people who don't have profound hearing losses should try HAs, they will not benefit 100% of the profoundly Deaf population - hearing losses can vary a lot and they are not all the same even if they are profound even with the same average dB loss across the board. HAs will not help some certain people at all ever, such as those who are born without auditory nerves and others just have either been born with or quickly lost all their hearing after birth to the point where the loss just too profound for even the best and the powerful HAs that ever existed. Just no point and a lot of wasted money. I would not use the word "everyone".

For a 115+ db loss, I understand not trying HAs. But for losses less than 90db, there is no excuse. It's true not all profoundly deaf will benefit from HAs but all HOH people should benefit and any that don't, it's their brain, not ears. My own audiologist told me I must train my brain with the HAs I have and that no CI will be better since I have enough hearing to benefit from HAs.

 

[deafdyke]

So I would not say that EVERYONE should try HAs, just that SOME people who don't have profound hearing losses should try HAs, they will not benefit 100% of the profoundly Deaf population - hearing losses can vary a lot and they are not all the same even if they are profound even with the same average dB loss across the board. HAs will not help some certain people at all ever, such as those who are born without auditory nerves and others just have either been born with or quickly lost all their hearing after birth to the point where the loss just too profound for even the best and the powerful HAs that ever existed. Just no point and a lot of wasted money. I would not use the word "everyone".

I agree 100%! Even with the loosened canidaicy requirements, there's still a significent percentage of canidates who cannot and do not benifit from "traditional" amplification. Still if you fall in the "ambigious" canidate pool, I think it's worth it to try some of the really powerful aids out there. There just seems to be this attitude that CI is best for everyone! Quite frankly looking back at the history of things like hearing aids, it's apparent that everyone responds differently to different hearing technologies.
Remember all the debates abt digitals vs analogs? It's basicly the same thing.

 

[set2]

I am not sure trying a bunch of HAs is practical. There are only so many audis and this would be time consuming. Certainly if someone is looking into a CI and they are not wearing the strongest HAs then they should have to try one maybe two makes of strong hearing aids before candidacy is determined. It can take time to adjust to a new hearing aid. It took me several weeks of constant headaches to adjust to the Oticon SUMO DM so I am not sure a short in office trial is the best way to go.

Isn't it really how much amplification the hearing aid provides that is the most important feature of a Hearing aid? The amplification can be used to narrow down the choices. The rest of the features (i.e. noise suppression) may help but really do not make a huge difference when ones hearing is in the severe to profound range. At least not for me.

BTW, after trying the SUMO DM I was only able to get 18% speech recognition in my rignt ear so I chose to get a CI. I am happy to say that I now understand over 80% of speech with no lipreading and no longer rely on captions. My thresholds are 15 to 25 db across the frequencies with the CI. I still wear a SUMO DM in my left ear which helps with music but I am not understanding anywhere near 80% of speech with the hearing aid. It was 36% two years ago but my unaided speech discrimintion was 28% now it is
8%. Finally, my hearing was also better than Deafdudes.

 

[deafdude1]

I am not sure trying a bunch of HAs is practical. There are only so many audis and this would be time consuming. Certainly if someone is looking into a CI and they are not wearing the strongest HAs then they should have to try one maybe two makes of strong hearing aids before candidacy is determined. It can take time to adjust to a new hearing aid. It took me several weeks of constant headaches to adjust to the Oticon SUMO DM so I am not sure a short in office trial is the best way to go.

Isn't it really how much amplification the hearing aid provides that is the most important feature of a Hearing aid? The amplification can be used to narrow down the choices. The rest of the features (i.e. noise suppression) may help but really do not make a huge difference when ones hearing is in the severe to profound range. At least not for me.

BTW, after trying the SUMO DM I was only able to get 18% speech recognition in my rignt ear so I chose to get a CI. I am happy to say that I now understand over 80% of speech with no lipreading and no longer rely on captions. My thresholds are 15 to 25 db across the frequencies with the CI. I still wear a SUMO DM in my left ear which helps with music but I am not understanding anywhere near 80% of speech with the hearing aid. It was 36% two years ago but my unaided speech discrimintion was 28% now it is
8%. Finally, my hearing was also better than Deafdudes.

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting post which I and others could learn from you and I could adjust my math. I didn't finish doing the math on my own hearing but if my math's right, I should be able to access at least 75% of the speech banana(the lows account for 60%) However earlier today I was able to hear my mother calling my name and I heard some words as well from 40 feet away. My mom and dad were amazed I heard them from the other room! I have no idea how bad your hearing is, got any unaided/aided audiograms?

It also took me some time to adjust to the Phonak Naida V UP. I am interested in trying the Oticon Sumo if my Phonak Naida's transposition(will be enabled with reprogramming) doesn't work or doesn't benefit me. The Oticon Sumo has several db more gain in the low frequencies. You stand correct that amplification/gain is most important. This is why my audie chose the HA I now wear. He could have chosen the Oticon Sumo but thought the transposition was worth trying first.

15db-25db is very impressive for CI, what was your audie able to achieve with HAs? Did you ever get close to 25db aided with your HAs or was your loss too profound? My audie believes he could get me to where you are getting with CI in the low frequencies and in the 30-40db range in the mid frequencies. Transposition(if it works) will shift the highs down to the mids. Even if not, I am not really concerned about the highs(see my other thread on why not)

 

[lovezebras]

Deafdude not many ppl get aided audiograms just to let you know.

 

[faire_jour]

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting post which I and others could learn from you and I could adjust my math. I didn't finish doing the math on my own hearing but if my math's right, I should be able to access at least 75% of the speech banana(the lows account for 60%) However earlier today I was able to hear my mother calling my name and I heard some words as well from 40 feet away. My mom and dad were amazed I heard them from the other room! I have no idea how bad your hearing is, got any unaided/aided audiograms?

It also took me some time to adjust to the Phonak Naida V UP. I am interested in trying the Oticon Sumo if my Phonak Naida's transposition(will be enabled with reprogramming) doesn't work or doesn't benefit me. The Oticon Sumo has several db more gain in the low frequencies. You stand correct that amplification/gain is most important. This is why my audie chose the HA I now wear. He could have chosen the Oticon Sumo but thought the transposition was worth trying first.

15db-25db is very impressive for CI, what was your audie able to achieve with HAs? Did you ever get close to 25db aided with your HAs or was your loss too profound? My audie believes he could get me to where you are getting with CI in the low frequencies and in the 30-40db range in the mid frequencies. Transposition(if it works) will shift the highs down to the mids. Even if not, I am not really concerned about the highs(see my other thread on why not)

You keep saying that everyone here is the exception. No one seems to be getting the 40 db you call "average"....ever consider you might be wrong??

 

[faire_jour]

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting post which I and others could learn from you and I could adjust my math. I didn't finish doing the math on my own hearing but if my math's right, I should be able to access at least 75% of the speech banana(the lows account for 60%) However earlier today I was able to hear my mother calling my name and I heard some words as well from 40 feet away. My mom and dad were amazed I heard them from the other room! I have no idea how bad your hearing is, got any unaided/aided audiograms?

It also took me some time to adjust to the Phonak Naida V UP. I am interested in trying the Oticon Sumo if my Phonak Naida's transposition(will be enabled with reprogramming) doesn't work or doesn't benefit me. The Oticon Sumo has several db more gain in the low frequencies. You stand correct that amplification/gain is most important. This is why my audie chose the HA I now wear. He could have chosen the Oticon Sumo but thought the transposition was worth trying first.

15db-25db is very impressive for CI, what was your audie able to achieve with HAs? Did you ever get close to 25db aided with your HAs or was your loss too profound? My audie believes he could get me to where you are getting with CI in the low frequencies and in the 30-40db range in the mid frequencies. Transposition(if it works) will shift the highs down to the mids. Even if not, I am not really concerned about the highs(see my other thread on why not)

Also, my daughter's SLP says that she should be able to hear and repeat the LING sounds spoken softly at 50 feet. That is expected for a CI users, not the exception.

 

[Lissa]

Most people including me seems to hear under 40 db so i wouldnt say 40 was "average"
Maybe 30-35