Sign question

Lillys dad

Lillys dad

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In public school, which type of sign would most likely be used? ASL or SEE?
 
interpreters would probably use see but other deaf there may teach her asl they learned at home. I know some interpreters that will sign asl andn some both during their interpreting assignment.
 
It depends on the local school's philosophy, and the skills of the interpreters.

One interesting note. In the public schools where I was a substitute interpreter, the administration stated that they used ASL but in reality they were using PSE/SEE. Also, the Deaf students for whom I interpret at the college level all claim to use ASL but none of them do.

Here's one problem that I see. Deaf students are "taught" sign language by hearing interpreters. (Actually, very little instruction of sign language happens, and no instruction in ASL grammar ever happens, at least in my experience.) There was no education in Deaf history or culture. No Deaf mentors or guest lecturers. No introduction into the Deaf community. The graduates of public "mainstream" programs that I meet use signs with the wrong conceptual meanings, initialized everything, and made-up creations. Aagh! Each state does things differently, of course, but some of the college students I know have moved here from other states, and they still have those problems.

Except in English classes where SEE might be used, I expect most interpreters will use PSE and call it ASL.

The only way to really know about your local situation is to personally observe the classes in session, and chat with the terps. Don't let them turn you away. You have every right to observe them. When you chat with the terps, find out their educational and professional backgrounds. Ask them what mode they use. Ask them how and when the students are taught ASL grammar and sign development. Ask them how often they attend workshops or other professional training, and how often they interact with the local Deaf community (for example, silent dinners). Do they keep their skills sharpened and Deaf community contacts fresh by "moonlighting" as a community terp during the summer? Listen to their answers, and watch their reactions to your questions.

Educate yourself enough to know the difference between SEE and ASL when you see it. You don't have to be fluent in them but at least familiar enough to notice the difference. That way, no one can give you a snow job. :P
 
Reba said:
It depends on the local school's philosophy, and the skills of the interpreters.

One interesting note. In the public schools where I was a substitute interpreter, the administration stated that they used ASL but in reality they were using PSE/SEE. Also, the Deaf students for whom I interpret at the college level all claim to use ASL but none of them do.

Here's one problem that I see. Deaf students are "taught" sign language by hearing interpreters. (Actually, very little instruction of sign language happens, and no instruction in ASL grammar ever happens, at least in my experience.) There was no education in Deaf history or culture. No Deaf mentors or guest lecturers. No introduction into the Deaf community. The graduates of public "mainstream" programs that I meet use signs with the wrong conceptual meanings, initialized everything, and made-up creations. Aagh! Each state does things differently, of course, but some of the college students I know have moved here from other states, and they still have those problems.

Except in English classes where SEE might be used, I expect most interpreters will use PSE and call it ASL.

The only way to really know about your local situation is to personally observe the classes in session, and chat with the terps. Don't let them turn you away. You have every right to observe them. When you chat with the terps, find out their educational and professional backgrounds. Ask them what mode they use. Ask them how and when the students are taught ASL grammar and sign development. Ask them how often they attend workshops or other professional training, and how often they interact with the local Deaf community (for example, silent dinners). Do they keep their skills sharpened and Deaf community contacts fresh by "moonlighting" as a community terp during the summer? Listen to their answers, and watch their reactions to your questions.

Educate yourself enough to know the difference between SEE and ASL when you see it. You don't have to be fluent in them but at least familiar enough to notice the difference. That way, no one can give you a snow job. :P
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Those who call pse asl, don't really know that much about asl. I used to think it was conceptual but had no idea about nonmanual markers and grammar and syntax. I thought it was uneducated deaf signing broken english. I used to think SEE was superior. I saw it from a hearing perspective vs deaf. I know many that still think this way and it is sad. ASL is a highly intricate language used by very intelligent people and it is truly beautiful and unique in it's own right. SEE isn't the deaf's language, ASL is. I think all deaf should learn ASL except maybe the late deafies they were hearing for many years and want to keep their english skills up. I think SEE should definately be deafs second language. And I think all interpreters should learn all three(asl,see,pse that way they cover all the bases) I am now learning asl for 8 months now and I truly cheated myself not learning it long ago. Robbielyn
 
I'm a hearie, learning ASL (or at least trying). One of the hardest things for me, and one of the biggest stumbling blocks, is that NO ONE seems to be able to definitively define whether a sign is ASL or PSE/SEE. They give you general hints like "well, if it starts with a letter, it's probably PSE". And yes, often, if a sign is initialized, you'll find deafies don't use it much when talking to each other. The trouble is, this isn't universal, and you find that native deafies do use lots of initialized signs -- even with each other. As a learner, sometimes I feel like my teachers (all native deafies) will just tell me it's PSE or SEE if it's initialized and they don't happen to use it. Then, a few months later you'll find a different native deafie who DOES use it in normal conversation with another deafie.

No ASL books seem to make this (rather important in my mind) distinction. They all claim to be ASL books, but in truth they tend to be a mixture of ASL and PSE/SEE.

In this regard, ASL reminds me of German. People from northern Germany are said to have trouble understanding people from parts of southern Germany, and their writing systems and spellings are kind of different. ASL seems similarly diffuse. Just like learning German, you have no real choice but to learn the variations, and use the appropriate vocabulary and mechanics for the situation.

I suspect that much of this diffusion is because PSE/SEE has become so infused into ASL (probably as a result of the mainstreaming of kids in the 1960s and 1970s--people who are teachers now).

I also wonder if this whole "old sign / new sign" dichotomy isn't really part of the larger state of transition that ASL seems to be in. Wouldn't it be logical that "old people" who learned sign from deaf schools (they were institutionalized a lot back then) would be using a more "pure" form of ASL than "young people", who are being mainstreamed and taught by hearies with varying degrees of understanding about ASL? Is it a kind of cultural compensation on the part of younger people, who've learned this "mixed ASL", to label bits and pieces of PSE as "new sign"? I dunno, maybe I'm crazy with that idea -- it's just a thought.

Anyway, I try to keep an open mind, and learn any and all signs I can (PSE, ASL, old sign, new sign, all of it). It seems that you never really know which signing vocabulary you're going to be using, so you really have to learn everything anyway.

However, this distinction between PSE and ASL is something I worry about a lot as a learner. It's why I've suggested to the dictionaryofsign.com guy that he implement a "PSE/SEE" and "ASL" checkbox on his site that people can vote on -- that way we learners can get some indication which is which.
 
Thanks for the responses. The reason I ask, is that as Lilly, and I become more firmilir with sign I find myself signing in sentences. I guess I am using a SEE philosophy towsrdds sign. Since I am learning signs and applying them to english grammar/sentence structure.
After thinking abou tthis, I began to wonder about sign in public school after mainstream. With Lilly and her CI, she is vewry verbal and uses her voice for everything. So wound it makes more sense, and be easier for her to use SEE so it would go along with spoken, hearing, writing, reading, english?
If I recall correctly, dont most people use SEE in school and then learn ASL on theri own after getting out of school?
 
That was the case for me. I grew up using SEE, mostly because my family was not deaf. When I started being mainstreamed in Grade 5, I had an ASL interpreter, which was interesting for me because of two reasons. Not only because of the obvious differences of the two sign languages, but also trying to catch up to the level of the class. So much to learn...

However, I have noticed that the more I am in the Deaf community, I'm still learning a lot of new signs even though I am an ASL tutor at a local community college. Recently, we hired a new coworker from Missouri, and it has been fun working with her because she is like 6th generation Deaf.

At our school, we encourage our deaf students to take ASL classes even though it might be their "language." It has been an interesting road for me and these students, comparing our differences in our sign language acquistion. I think it is all a part of the journey into Deafhood, and a very normal one.
 
Well SEE tends to be used educationally, whereas ASL tends to be used socially.
 
"There is a big difference between SEE and Signed English."
Umm, That is why I am asking. From what I understood this far, SEE and ASL use alot of basic signs, but in a different manner, correct? I am very aware of the differences in structure. I know the language is very different. I want to know how they are different and if I am correct that they use some of the same signs.
 
Lillys dad said:
"There is a big difference between SEE and Signed English."
Umm, That is why I am asking. From what I understood this far, SEE and ASL use alot of basic signs, but in a different manner, correct? I am very aware of the differences in structure. I know the language is very different. I want to know how they are different and if I am correct that they use some of the same signs.
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Alot of signs used in mce are used in asl. But with asl, alot of these signs tend to move around and use space like from one person to another. Like; book, give-you or book,give-me. In english you sign, I give you the book(a sign for each word.) ASL has the advantage of using space to convey information saving lots of signing to say the same thing. There is nothing wrong in you signing in english word order since she will be able to talk and speak english. And if you want to use a sign for each word that is ok but it is best to make sure the sign conveys the meaning. For example, I am going "to" the store vs. I am "too" tired. or I have "two" pairs of shoes. If you involve her in the deaf community her deaf playmates will teach her asl and she will teach you if you care to learn. I know you said you want her to be involved in both worlds, and I think she should have that, but it does seem to me since she will have limited hearing she should definitely concentrate on learning english. With her CI she has the capacity to have oral english be her native language with english sign as her secondary and asl as her third. But of course it's up to you. Robbielyn
 
Calphool said:
I'm a hearie, learning ASL (or at least trying). One of the hardest things for me, and one of the biggest stumbling blocks, is that NO ONE seems to be able to definitively define whether a sign is ASL or PSE/SEE. They give you general hints like "well, if it starts with a letter, it's probably PSE". And yes, often, if a sign is initialized, you'll find deafies don't use it much when talking to each other. The trouble is, this isn't universal, and you find that native deafies do use lots of initialized signs -- even with each other. As a learner, sometimes I feel like my teachers (all native deafies) will just tell me it's PSE or SEE if it's initialized and they don't happen to use it. Then, a few months later you'll find a different native deafie who DOES use it in normal conversation with another deafie.

No ASL books seem to make this (rather important in my mind) distinction. They all claim to be ASL books, but in truth they tend to be a mixture of ASL and PSE/SEE.

In this regard, ASL reminds me of German. People from northern Germany are said to have trouble understanding people from parts of southern Germany, and their writing systems and spellings are kind of different. ASL seems similarly diffuse. Just like learning German, you have no real choice but to learn the variations, and use the appropriate vocabulary and mechanics for the situation.

I suspect that much of this diffusion is because PSE/SEE has become so infused into ASL (probably as a result of the mainstreaming of kids in the 1960s and 1970s--people who are teachers now).

I also wonder if this whole "old sign / new sign" dichotomy isn't really part of the larger state of transition that ASL seems to be in. Wouldn't it be logical that "old people" who learned sign from deaf schools (they were institutionalized a lot back then) would be using a more "pure" form of ASL than "young people", who are being mainstreamed and taught by hearies with varying degrees of understanding about ASL? Is it a kind of cultural compensation on the part of younger people, who've learned this "mixed ASL", to label bits and pieces of PSE as "new sign"? I dunno, maybe I'm crazy with that idea -- it's just a thought.

Anyway, I try to keep an open mind, and learn any and all signs I can (PSE, ASL, old sign, new sign, all of it). It seems that you never really know which signing vocabulary you're going to be using, so you really have to learn everything anyway.

However, this distinction between PSE and ASL is something I worry about a lot as a learner. It's why I've suggested to the dictionaryofsign.com guy that he implement a "PSE/SEE" and "ASL" checkbox on his site that people can vote on -- that way we learners can get some indication which is which.
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ASL is really radically different from pse. Let me give you an example: "I finally got a new car" in asl: "My goal new car pah! "Or if someone walks up to you and a friend you're telling a long story to and you really don't feel like repreating yourself and they sign, "Story story what's up? and You sign back "Train go sorry" English means hey guys what are you talking about? and you say " Nevermind you missed it". Or another; " You want involve army? Must list requirements match." If you want to join the army there are certain requirements to meet."There is just no relation to english. Now a lot of deafies have been mainstreamed and have learned english and they teach english in the residential schools too so it is not at all surprising to see people using pse, case or mce. It's all good though. If you want to really learn asl, try Signing Naturally vol 1,2,3. They teach how to use classifiers and everthing involved in asl. It goes more in depth with the grammar/syntax and the non manual markers, and the use of space. Many youth are proud to use english and want to sign english. I think some of it has to do with the fact that the old stigma was asl is for the uneducated deaf held by ignorant hearing people who didn't realize asl was a real language, so they don't want there to be any misconceptions that the deaf are really as intelligent as hearing people so they learn english. I don't say this off the cuff, I am friends with a deaf girl who prides herself in learning english and since she can't speak well, she signs english and writes english very well. But she knows asl and will use it with other deaf people, but she prefers english. She herself equates learning english with her intelligence. It is really sad the deaf are forced to feel this way by ignorant hearies. Some deaf don't want to teach hearies asl so will only use english or pse with them and only use asl with other deaf. There are more deaf that know and use english and pse versus pure asl. So learning english or pse is appropriate too. The deaf want to be able to communicate so they are happy when hearies are willing to learn how to sign as long as their motive is honorable and not selfish or taking advantage. And some will gladly teach you asl too so really it's up to you as to what you want to learn.
 
Lillys dad said:
In public school, which type of sign would most likely be used? ASL or SEE?
Click to expand...

IF my experience is anything to go by, I would say SEE is most often used. One of my resources teacher was so zealous of teaching us correct English that she had us circle the first letter of each sentence if we were to fingerspell the first word.

The idea here was to teach use to capitalize each word like it was a written sentence.
 
I'm not going to tell you which is "better" because that's a judgment call you'll have to make for your daughter's specific needs. I'll just tell you what I've observed.

I've noticed that the people who've graduated from mainstream programs during the last 10 years have poor reading and writing skills, very limited English vocabularies, and poor sign vocabularies (ASL and "English" signs both). Most of my consumers are college students, so supposedly they are the better educated but their knowledge and skills base for academics and language is paper thin. It's very sad and discouraging for them when they hit the real world of college level requirements. (BTW, I'm not talking about Harvard or Yale or MIT.)

Some of my other consumers within the community, not college, are even worse off. You won't get their opinions here at AD because they don't know how to access the internet or write a post. But some are recent high school grads.

I used to blame myself if a Deaf consumer didn't understand all my signs. Then it dawned on me that they didn't have the sign vocabulary, and/or they used a lot of "made up" signs. And I don't mean just technical or topic specific signs. I mean common vocabulary.

Example: One consumer graduated from high school two years ago. He/she still used the "old" CHINA "slanted eyes" sign. I showed the consumer the "new" sign, and asked if he/she had ever seen that. Never.

Other "unknown" signs were FLATTER and CONFLICT. Many signs are used with totally wrong concepts only because the printed word "looks like" another English word, so it must use the same sign. A Deaf college student "can't stand" that teacher (signs it CAN'T STAND, not CAN'T BEAR).

I used to think it was a problem unique to our backward Southern educational system. But many of the college students I meet are graduates from other states, including the Northeast.

Parents, do your research, and then observe the classroom in action. Ask the classroom interpreters and Deaf Ed teachers about their credentials and sign language and educational philosophies. Be wary if they avoid your questions. If you can, meet recent graduates and chat with them.

Whatever we say about our local experiences might not apply to your situation. The only way to know for sure is to see it with your own eyes.
 
Reba said:
I've noticed that the people who've graduated from mainstream programs during the last 10 years have poor reading and writing skills, very limited English vocabularies, and poor sign vocabularies (ASL and "English" signs both). Most of my consumers are college students, so supposedly they are the better educated but their knowledge and skills base for academics and language is paper thin. It's very sad and discouraging for them when they hit the real world of college level requirements. (BTW, I'm not talking about Harvard or Yale or MIT.)
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Well, I am a product of the mainstreamed programme at the local school district. I think just blaming the mainstreamed program is the wrong way to go. Ultimately, the parents have to take a big role in their children's education, and my parents always helped me with my homeworks, making sure I understood everything. We would practise our vocabulary words and spelling almost every day, and my parents made the efforts to communicate with me about all kinds of things.

It is really sad when PODC (parents of deaf children) take very little role in their children's education and provide very little stimulation to their children. What's even worse is the condescining attitude that many hearing people have towards Deaf people. If a Deaf people can make a cup of coffee, the hearing people act as if it is the biggest acheivement of that Deaf person. I have told these folks to quit doing that. I will always have my parents to thank for taking such an active part in my life during my childhood. I don't think they really realise it, but again, they see me as a normal person anyhow and probably don't comprehend the immense significance of their upbringing of me. Kudos to them!

Right now, I am working in a medical lab and was recently promoted. Now, a lot of hearing workers have to answer to me about what to do on different medical procedures and tests. So far, it has been going pretty well, even though I do not speak very well nor read lips that much at all. All is done through gesture, pointing to computer, pointing to information, and writing. The workers are seeming to adapt pretty good to me. :) It's only a matter of attitude, smiling and joking a bit. :)
 
I rarely see SEE used, even in educational situations. It tends to be very cumbersome, and difficult to keep signing pace with spoken pace. Wrod prefixes and suffixes all have separate signs, plurals are denoted with a fignerspelled "s" rather than repeating the sign, etc. It has been my experience that the form of sign used most in educational settings is SPE. This is usually the case because the majority of the teachers are hearing, and SPE is a more natural form of manual language for them.
 
Lillys dad said:
"There is a big difference between SEE and Signed English."
Umm, That is why I am asking. From what I understood this far, SEE and ASL use alot of basic signs, but in a different manner, correct? I am very aware of the differences in structure. I know the language is very different. I want to know how they are different and if I am correct that they use some of the same signs.
Click to expand...

Signed English utilizes the basic signs of ASL but with some modification. Where ASL will use a sign to represent a concept, Signed English uses the sign to represent the English word. Therefore, the basic handshape used in the ASL sign is often changed to intialize the sign with the first letter of the word. For instance, if in ASL, you were refering to first person singular, you would simply point to yourself at chest level. However, in SPE, you would point to yourself to represent "me", but if you wanted to represent the English word "I" you would use the letter "i" at chest level. The concept is still the same--first person singular, the difference is the distinction of the two English words to represent that concept.

Also, sequencing is different in ASL than in Signed English.

Both are based on the fact that one language is visual and the other is oral/auditory. Cognitive processing is different for the two modes, and what makes sense visually doesn't always make sense auditorily. And vice versa.
 
Kuifje75 said:
Well, I am a product of the mainstreamed programme at the local school district. I think just blaming the mainstreamed program is the wrong way to go. Ultimately, the parents have to take a big role in their children's education...
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I'm not "blaming" mainstream education; I'm just making an observation.

As you can see in my posts, I emphasized parental involvement. That's the only way parents can really know what's happening, good and bad, at their local school.

Your educational success is proof that the involvement of informed parents is very important.
 
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