Self-esteem, Christ esteem, denominations etc..

[Audiofuzzy]

ta da! who'd like to continue what was started on the other fourm? How about "copy- paste" and voila!!

Fuzzy

 

[Maria]

It seems like you never end it and, yet it still interested ya. *laughin'*
You are funny, Fuzzy !

 

[Audiofuzzy]

It seems like you never end it and, yet it still interested ya. *laughin'*
You are funny, Fuzzy !

Thank you


well I like to debate, true, and can do it till' cows come home. I have to restrict myself at times, really

I would go into the church with them and wait for them. Before going into the church they would each take a kleenex and stick it on their hair with a bobby pin.

That have to be from long ago? I've never seen the Kleenex trick.. what was that for ?

Fuzzy

 

[Reba]

I would go into the church with them and wait for them. Before going into the church they would each take a kleenex and stick it on their hair with a bobby pin.

That have to be from long ago? I've never seen the Kleenex trick.. what was that for ?

Females were supposed to cover their heads before entering the church. Most of the older ladies wore lace manteas or scarves. Girls usually didn't like to carry scarves or manteas with them, so technically a kleenex did the job of "covering".

 

[Maria]

I remember when I was a little girl, I wore a lace mantea with bobby pin on my head when I attended Catholic church in New York City. The lace mantea was white. It was a long time ago.

 

[jazzy]

yeah should move all posts from there to here. Thanks for create this forums.

 

[jazzy]

It seems like you never end it and, yet it still interested ya. *laughin'*
You are funny, Fuzzy !

Thank you


well I like to debate, true, and can do it till' cows come home. I have to restrict myself at times, really

I would go into the church with them and wait for them. Before going into the church they would each take a kleenex and stick it on their hair with a bobby pin.

That have to be from long ago? I've never seen the Kleenex trick.. what was that for ?

Fuzzy

Really I dont recall any of them lol.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Females were supposed to cover their heads before entering the church. Most of the older ladies wore lace manteas or scarves. Girls usually didn't like to carry scarves or manteas with them, so technically a kleenex did the job of "covering".



lol Reba I'm afraid this betrays your age... in MY times there is no head covering for girls or ladies required..



Fuzzy

 

[Y]

LOL about kleenex I could NOT help
laughing about this because I was
wearing a big beautiful hat at the church,
but my younger sister FORGOT to
bring her hat so my Dad had to
put kleenex "made of cotton or silk cloth"
top of her head and
she was FROWNING the whole time
at the church because she could
NOT stand wearing this ugly white cloth
on her head .... Poor Sister, but
she got many more Blessings anyway...

 

[Rose Immortal]

I don't know why, but this makes me feel very sad reading about girls and women having to cover their heads in church. Didn't Christ die for the sins of Eve as well as Adam's?

 

[Audiofuzzy]

How do we know that purgatory exists? It is never mentioned in the Bible, so where did the Catholic tradition about Purgatory come from?

Although the word "purgatory" is not mentioned in the Bible, the reality of purgatory is clearly mentioned there. The words "Trinity" and "incarnation" and "Bible" are not mentioned in the Bible, but these realities are revealed there. Jesus speaks of sins to be forgiven in the life to come (Matthew 12:23). Saint Paul speaks of those saved in the next life "through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15). Saint Peter speaks of the "spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-20) and of the Gospel "preached to the dead" (1 Peter 4:6). The Bible explicitly tells us to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:44-46). Besides being found in Sacred Tradition, which explicitly affirms the existence of purgatory, it is clearly that the doctrine of it existence is also found in Sacred Scripture.


When did the practice of praying for the dead begin?

The Catholic Church, from the time Christ founded her, always prayed for the dead. This practice, since its importance was already revealed by God in the Old Testament, however, was also present in ancient Judaism. The earliest Christian liturgies (worship services) contains prayers for the deceased. Tomb inscriptions and all the evidence from the catacombs indicate that the earliest Christians prayed for their dead and had Masses offered for the repose of their soul. Writing in the year 211 A.D. Tertullian said, "We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthdays and anniversaries". Rejection of the doctrine of purgatory only came about when Martin Luther abandoned the Catholic Church and invented the Protestant Religion. There are indications of prayers for the dead in the New Testament (2 Timothy 1:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:29-30).


I think many of you find this site interesting if not informative;
http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/purgatory/#5

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I don't know why, but this makes me feel very sad reading about girls and women having to cover their heads in church.

aww Rose.. wasn't that bad, I personally feel a bit nostalgic watching TClassicM from the pre-war and after war era when women were so feminine and were wearing hats, french berets.. wasn't that pretty..?

They don't have to do it anymore, though.. at least my girlfriends don't..
I know I didn't..

What's peculiar men as a sign of respect were required to take off their hats.
Jewish people (men) onthe other hand as a sign of respect to God, must keep their heads covered.
I don't know about Jewish women though.



Fuzzy

 

[Rose Immortal]

I guess to me something like that can only be beautiful if it's a choice and not forced.

 

[Reba]

The Bible explicitly tells us to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:44-46). Besides being found in Sacred Tradition, which explicitly affirms the existence of purgatory, it is clearly that the doctrine of it existence is also found in Sacred Scripture.

Maccabees is not part of the holy canon of Scriptures.

Tradition is not the Bible.

When did the practice of praying for the dead begin?

The Catholic Church, from the time Christ founded her, always prayed for the dead.

Christ didn't found the Catholic Church, and praying for dead people serves no purpose. Each person, while living, must make his or her own decision to accept Christ. Praying for someone after death is too late. The dead have already reached their destination.

This practice, since its importance was already revealed by God in the Old Testament, however, was also present in ancient Judaism.

Where?

The earliest Christian liturgies (worship services) contains prayers for the deceased. Tomb inscriptions and all the evidence from the catacombs indicate that the earliest Christians prayed for their dead and had Masses offered for the repose of their soul. Writing in the year 211 A.D. Tertullian said, "We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthdays and anniversaries"

None of those sources are biblical.

Rejection of the doctrine of purgatory only came about when Martin Luther abandoned the Catholic Church and invented the Protestant Religion.

Luther didn't want to "invent" the Protestant "religion"; he actually wanted to reform his own Catholic church. But that is beside the point.

The dual doctrines of Indulgences and Purgatory fed each other. These doctrines were created about 700 years after the church of Jesus was established at Pentecost. If God thought they were necessary doctrines, why would He wait 700 years to share that information?

There are indications of prayers for the dead in the New Testament (2 Timothy 1:16-18...

Where does it say anything about praying for the dead in that passage?

and 1 Corinthians 15:29-30

The theme of chapter 15 is the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
The verses you give must be taken in context with the entire passage.
The verses leading up to 29-30 show that baptism was the method of identification of Christians with Christ.
The order of those resurrected started with Christ. Paul explained that if Christ was not resurrected, then no one will be resurrected. But Christ was resurrected, so everyone who identifies with Him will be resurrected also. The public sign of that identification (after salvation) is baptism.
Therefore, v. 29-30 asks the question:
"Else what shall they do which are baptized (identified) for the dead (a dead Christ), if the dead (Christ) rise (resurrect ) not al all? why are they (Christians) then baptized for (identified with) the dead (Christ)?
"And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? (Why do we risk our lives as persecuted Christians if there is no resurrection?)
Paul continues on thru the chapter to answer the question, verse by verse.
Finally, 15:58, he states:
"Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."
Yes, it is worth the persecuted life on earth because we will resurrect with the Lord.

It has nothing to do with purgatory.

(Sorry for such a compressed answer but I am trying to fit it into this post.)

 

[pek1]

Maccabees is not part of the holy canon of Scriptures.

Tradition is not the Bible.

Christ didn't found the Catholic Church, and praying for dead people serves no purpose. Each person, while living, must make his or her own decision to accept Christ. Praying for someone after death is too late. The dead have already reached their destination.

Where?

None of those sources are biblical.

Luther didn't want to "invent" the Protestant "religion"; he actually wanted to reform his own Catholic church. But that is beside the point.

The dual doctrines of Indulgences and Purgatory fed each other. These doctrines were created about 700 years after the church of Jesus was established at Pentecost. If God thought they were necessary doctrines, why would He wait 700 years to share that information?

Where does it say anything about praying for the dead in that passage?

The theme of chapter 15 is the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
The verses you give must be taken in context with the entire passage.
The verses leading up to 29-30 show that baptism was the method of identification of Christians with Christ.
The order of those resurrected started with Christ. Paul explained that if Christ was not resurrected, then no one will be resurrected. But Christ was resurrected, so everyone who identifies with Him will be resurrected also. The public sign of that identification (after salvation) is baptism.
Therefore, v. 29-30 asks the question:
"Else what shall they do which are baptized (identified) for the dead (a dead Christ), if the dead (Christ) rise (resurrect ) not al all? why are they (Christians) then baptized for (identified with) the dead (Christ)?
"And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? (Why do we risk our lives as persecuted Christians if there is no resurrection?)
Paul continues on thru the chapter to answer the question, verse by verse.
Finally, 15:58, he states:
"Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."
Yes, it is worth the persecuted life on earth because we will resurrect with the Lord.

It has nothing to do with purgatory.

(Sorry for such a compressed answer but I am trying to fit it into this post.)

Reba,

I concur and stand behind you on this one. I see nothing in Scripture that talks about any of that stuff.

On the same note, if I were to believe this stuff, I'd really have the crap scared out of me when I stood before God and He asked me about all of it. Tradition is not how He judges and doesn't care or give a rip if you'd paid peace offerings for a hundred dead stiffs. If you do not know Christ as Saviour, when you die, you get no second chance and are doomed to Hell forever.

You know, Reba, the Catholic priests know what they're supposed to be teaching, yet I wonder why they aren't, because Scripture says judgment is going to be even tougher on them when they stand before God.

 

[Reba]

...Scripture says judgment is going to be even tougher on them when they stand before God.

True, all priests, ministers, pastors, evangelists, etc., have a huge responsibility. If they intentionally lead their sheep astray, they have blood on their hands that God will judge.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

the Catholic priests know what they're supposed to be teaching, yet I wonder why they aren't,

In your opinion, what's that they should teach and they don't?

I would think Catholic priests teach what they are suppose to teach..

Fuzzy

 

[pek1]

the Catholic priests know what they're supposed to be teaching, yet I wonder why they aren't,

In your opinion, what's that they should teach and they don't?

I would think Catholic priests teach what they are suppose to teach..

Fuzzy

Fuzzy,

Grace alone by faith in Christ, not of works (Ephesians 2:8). By the way, it's not my opinion...that is Scripture's opinion and not open for debate. In other words, Scripture stands behind itself. No other literary work does that or can.

 

[pek1]

True, all priests, ministers, pastors, evangelists, etc., have a huge responsibility. If they intentionally lead their sheep astray, they have blood on their hands that God will judge.

Including every single visitor that walks through their church for any reason.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

that is Scripture's opinion and not open for debate.

yet still, the question remains- WHO'SE interpretation if Scripture is RIGHT?

Who'se religion is right?

I think Buddah got it quite accurately......

Fuzzy