See / Asl

Dark-Half

New Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
846
Reaction score
0
When I went to get my CI elevation to see if I qualify they hired an interpreter for the last 2 sessions. And for the first two sessions my audiologist was signing.

Anyway, I understood her perfectly she spoke at a normal speed and signed with SEE, this was extremely easy for me to understand her and joke around. Some words she couldn't sign so she wrote them down due to the complexity of my questions regarding the implant.

Next part where the interpreter came into play, she spoke rather rapidly and signed rapidly as well in ASL. I couldn't read her lips for crap worth and had trouble understanding some signs. Not to be biased as toward ASL because it's probably atributing to her personality more than the language itself, however even if she signed slow I would have still had trouble understanding her. I personally believe SEE formulates a better structure for understanding of what one person is trying to say as opposed to ASL. Perhaps I am biased, I never been on the side where ASL has been favorable.

I'm sure theres alot of people who prefer ASL over SEE, but what I want to know is why some people prefer it? Assume that they learned ASL to begin with they would be biased to it as well because they understood it better? But wouldn't it be better to teach them SEE first so that it would help their writing skills as mentioned in another thread. I'd like to think its played an immense part in my grammar structures. I wonder why it's hard for someone who knows SEE to understand ASL. Opinions please!
 
Good questions, I must admit I have asked them before myself!

If one lives in a visual world, not relying on fonetics, communicating in visual mode with other that are deaf, too, I belive the mind often will find it more effective and natural to use ASL. It takes some time to realize this, and it is a force of the nature. If we could choose between SEE and ASL, or ASL had a worse structure for what one is trying to say to another person, I doubt ASL would exist. Many of the old deafs are fluent ASL users, though they went to oral schools in their childhood.

Regarding the ASL interpreter, I agree with you that ASL is not the best. I prefer interpreters who writes spoken language on a screen, so I can read it. This way I do not have to keep an eye on the interpreter all the time, and everything is translated, except the variations done with voices.

SEE is not a true independent languge on it's own. It is english in a visual mode, with limited use. For example, it's rare to experience SEE used in stand up comedy or in big group dicussions, while this is common in ASL.

ASL, that is a differnt language on it's own with different grammars, have something called classificators. I think this is why you feel it is difficult to understand some of the ASL, and use it.
 
About ASL

American Sign Language


Why does ASL become a first language for many deaf people?


Parents are often the source of a child's early acquisition of language. A deaf child who is born to deaf parents who already use ASL will begin to acquire ASL as naturally as a hearing child picks up spoken language from hearing parents. However, language is acquired differently by a deaf child with hearing parents who have no prior experience with ASL. Some hearing parents choose to introduce sign language to their deaf children. Hearing parents who choose to learn sign language often learn it along with their child. Nine out of every ten children who are born deaf are born to parents who hear. Other communication models, based in spoken English, exist apart from ASL, including oral, auditory-verbal, and cued speech. As with any language, interaction with other children and adults is also a significant factor in acquisition.

Top

Why emphasize early language learning?


Parents should introduce deaf children to language as early as possible. The earlier any child is exposed to and begins to acquire language, the better that child's communication skills will become. Research suggests that the first six months are the most crucial to a child's development of language skills. All newborns should be screened for deafness or hearing loss before they leave the hospital or within the first month of life. Very early discovery of a child's hearing loss or deafness provides parents with an opportunity to learn about communication options. Parents can then start their child's language learning process during this important stage of development.

Top

What does recent research say about ASL and other sign languages?


Some studies focus on the age of ASL acquisition. Age is a critical issue for people who acquire ASL, whether it is a first or second language. For a person to become fully competent in any language, exposure must begin as early as possible, preferably before school age. Other studies compare the skills of native signers and non-native signers to determine differences in language processing ability. Native signers of ASL consistently display more accomplished sign language ability than non-native signers, again emphasizing the importance of early exposure and acquisition.

Other studies focus on different ASL processing skills. Users of ASL have shown ability to process visual mental images differently than hearing users of English. Though English speakers possess the skills needed to process visual imagery, ASL users demonstrate faster processing ability--suggesting that sign language enhances certain processing functions of the human brain.

About SEE

Signing Exact English: Information from Answers.com

Advantages
SEE sign shows fully the use of articles and prepositions to deaf children who often have difficulty learning the correct usage of these parts of the English language.
SEE is easy for English speaking parents and teachers of deaf children to master quickly.

Disadvantages
SEE is much slower than natural speech or ASL unless it abandons its stricture to be faithful to spoken English and becomes more ASL-like.
SEE has no community of adult users and is not part of a flourishing culture as is the case for both English and ASL
SEE cannot faithfully show every aspect of spoken English

Educational controversy
As with almost every aspect of the education of deaf children, the use of SEE is mired in controversy concerning its efficacy and utility. In a way, it is a slight variation of the oralist vs. manualist controversy which has pitted those that have supported the use of sign language against those that believed in lipreading and speech therapy as the best way to educate deaf children. This debate has raged for two centuries.

Supporters of ASL or the manualists claim that SEE and its cohort system, Cued Speech, robs children of belonging to a culture that they can fully participate in, is hard for deaf children to master and does not result in those children being competent with English. Further, since the introduction of the Abbé Charles-Michel de l'Epee's methodical signs in the 1760s and their continuance by his successor, the Abbe Roch-Ambroise Sicard, scholars in deaf education have continually said that such systems are actually accommodations for the hearing teachers who have not learned the natural language of the deaf because of the great difficulty they encountered in doing so. Indeed, while deaf children are instructed using SEE so as to learn English, they receive no instruction in ASL whatsoever and must acquire it from other students and deaf adults who are present in the educational environment. Still further, they claim its use is a disrespectful attempt to change deaf children into hearing ones as much as is possible with great harm to the intellectual and emotional development of the children involved. It is often cited as a great irony that when hearing people use their mastery of their native language as a bridge to learning a second language, the world's universal embrace of applying this method of language acquisition is considered fundamental to all mankind with the exception of the deaf, whose natural language is the language of signs. Deaf people see themselves being subjected to the reverse of this long-accepted rule of language acquisition.

Tremendous confusion is cited by the deaf also since, while in the process of acquiring SEE, the teacher often reverts to explaining the system in Signed English which permits the teacher to simultaneously speak while using manual communication. Since Signed English, itself, is often unintelligible to the deaf, they find themselves gathering after classroom instruction to work out not only the lessons in SEE, but also what the teacher was saying in Signed English, and the children themselves work out both problems using ASL. The extraordinary tedium in learning SEE, translated in part by Signed English, and finally translated again into ASL makes for a perplexing burden on young deaf children that is not placed on hearing children. It accounts for very low rates of literacy among the deaf and, according to surveys of hearing teachers of the deaf, a high level of job dissatisfaction.

Finally, deaf people explain that SEE itself has added to a tremendous corruption or confusion of ASL. Casual acquisition of a signed language by hearing people is common. These casual learners are often taught the SEE equivalent of an ASL sign, such as the initialized "he" signed in SEE from the forehead using the "H" handshape as opposed to the ASL sign "he" made by pointing the index finger at a person or at a designed point in space. Casual learners generalize upon such SEE signs to think that personal pronouns are initialized and that they belong to the vocabulary of ASL when, in fact, they do not. Since deaf people are most often in the role of accommodating hearing people with whom they are communicating, they accommodate these errors even when they recognize them as errors and thus doing, reinforce the misunderstanding about the nature of signs. Added to this is the problem that, since ASL is almost never an academic subject in the education of the deaf, the deaf themselves often cannot explain the errors to hearing people and by this omission permit errors in signing to persist.

Supporters of SEE claim that it helps children to integrate into the wider culture and is an important part of becoming competent with English which is the key to success in the professional world as well as being integral in a person's ability to function in other aspects of the dominant culture which surrounds them.

SEE is easy for English speaking parents and teachers of deaf children to master quickly.
Even though SEE is not considered a language at many schools it is taught as a first language. Are deaf students really learning a language? Students first develop BICS but without a first language many deaf students are not able to develop the language needed to function in society and then develop CALP.

My own words

See the italics...that's why I believe strongly in exposing language not visual codes of a language to deaf children during their formative years of language development.

I had been exposed to ASL since learning sign and I became fluent in it. Then whenver someone uses SEE, I have trouble understanding it even though my first and only language growing up was spoken English..I cannot understand SEE because in my mind, I have two language processing centers which are English and ASL so whenever I am conversing using sign, the ASL center of my brain is used so SEE becomes confusing to me and very hard. Also, since it is slower and more tedious, my eyes end up hurting and just like with lip reading. The processing of the information becomes unnatural and I have to work hard at trying to understand what the person is saying in SEE. Yes, I understand it but it takes work rather as opposed to ASL, it is more natural.

The problem with SEE in small children is they need to have a strong L1 first ..if they dont, many of the signs dont have meanings for the children like "and" "to" and the children lose interest. Believe me, I tried to teach SEE when teaching reading and writing to my 1st graders but most of the time I have to revert back to ASL to keep their attention on me. The older kids are taught in SEE for reading and writing and they do better because they understand the purpose for it as opposed to young children who have short attention spans.

I think SEE should only be used when teaching reading and writing not for language development.

Anyways...studies have shown that deaf children from deaf families acquire competent literacy skills so if ASL was messing up the grammar of English, then these deaf children from deaf families wouldnt have good reading and writing skills. It is all because they developed CALP.

Cognitive Academic Language Proficiency
CALP refers to formal academic learning. This includes listening, speaking, reading, and writing about subject area content material. This level of language learning is essential for students to succeed in school. Students need time and support to become proficient in academic areas. This usually takes from five to seven years. Recent research (Thomas & Collier, 1995) has shown that if a child has no prior schooling or has no support in native language development, it may take seven to ten years for ELLs to catch up to their peers.


Academic language acquisition isn't just the understanding of content area vocabulary. It includes skills such as comparing, classifying, synthesizing, evaluating, and inferring. Academic language tasks are context reduced. Information is read from a textbook or presented by the teacher. As a student gets older the context of academic tasks becomes more and more reduced.

The language also becomes more cognitively demanding. New ideas, concepts and language are presented to the students at the same time.


Jim Cummins also advances the theory that there is a common underlying proficiency (CUP) between two languages. Skills, ideas and concepts students learn in their first language will be transferred to the second language.
[/B]
 
When I went to get my CI elevation to see if I qualify they hired an interpreter for the last 2 sessions. And for the first two sessions my audiologist was signing.

Anyway, I understood her perfectly she spoke at a normal speed and signed with SEE, this was extremely easy for me to understand her and joke around. Some words she couldn't sign so she wrote them down due to the complexity of my questions regarding the implant.

Next part where the interpreter came into play, she spoke rather rapidly and signed rapidly as well in ASL. I couldn't read her lips for crap worth and had trouble understanding some signs. Not to be biased as toward ASL because it's probably atributing to her personality more than the language itself, however even if she signed slow I would have still had trouble understanding her. I personally believe SEE formulates a better structure for understanding of what one person is trying to say as opposed to ASL. Perhaps I am biased, I never been on the side where ASL has been favorable.

I'm sure theres alot of people who prefer ASL over SEE, but what I want to know is why some people prefer it? Assume that they learned ASL to begin with they would be biased to it as well because they understood it better? But wouldn't it be better to teach them SEE first so that it would help their writing skills as mentioned in another thread. I'd like to think its played an immense part in my grammar structures. I wonder why it's hard for someone who knows SEE to understand ASL. Opinions please!

I use ASL and PSE
 
I was raised using SEE and PSE til I met and became friends with some deaf people and used asl with them. I still use See and PSE more than ASL, but that's just because it's easier for me, having grown up with it. I think everyone processes langauge differently, that some people might have better luck with asl, others with SEE or PSE...
 
When I went to get my CI elevation to see if I qualify they hired an interpreter for the last 2 sessions. And for the first two sessions my audiologist was signing.

Anyway, I understood her perfectly she spoke at a normal speed and signed with SEE, this was extremely easy for me to understand her and joke around. Some words she couldn't sign so she wrote them down due to the complexity of my questions regarding the implant.

Next part where the interpreter came into play, she spoke rather rapidly and signed rapidly as well in ASL. I couldn't read her lips for crap worth and had trouble understanding some signs. Not to be biased as toward ASL because it's probably atributing to her personality more than the language itself, however even if she signed slow I would have still had trouble understanding her. I personally believe SEE formulates a better structure for understanding of what one person is trying to say as opposed to ASL. Perhaps I am biased, I never been on the side where ASL has been favorable.

I'm sure theres alot of people who prefer ASL over SEE, but what I want to know is why some people prefer it? Assume that they learned ASL to begin with they would be biased to it as well because they understood it better? But wouldn't it be better to teach them SEE first so that it would help their writing skills as mentioned in another thread. I'd like to think its played an immense part in my grammar structures. I wonder why it's hard for someone who knows SEE to understand ASL. Opinions please!

I don't think your biased, its part of your language style that your comfortable with and its your preference. Just FYI , you can request a SEE specialist Interpreter or you can request SEE from your next interpreter, you prefer the English just to make communication easier for you to understand.
 
When I went to get my CI elevation to see if I qualify they hired an interpreter for the last 2 sessions. And for the first two sessions my audiologist was signing.

Anyway, I understood her perfectly she spoke at a normal speed and signed with SEE, this was extremely easy for me to understand her and joke around. Some words she couldn't sign so she wrote them down due to the complexity of my questions regarding the implant.

Next part where the interpreter came into play, she spoke rather rapidly and signed rapidly as well in ASL. I couldn't read her lips for crap worth and had trouble understanding some signs. Not to be biased as toward ASL because it's probably atributing to her personality more than the language itself, however even if she signed slow I would have still had trouble understanding her. I personally believe SEE formulates a better structure for understanding of what one person is trying to say as opposed to ASL. Perhaps I am biased, I never been on the side where ASL has been favorable.

I'm sure theres alot of people who prefer ASL over SEE, but what I want to know is why some people prefer it? Assume that they learned ASL to begin with they would be biased to it as well because they understood it better? But wouldn't it be better to teach them SEE first so that it would help their writing skills as mentioned in another thread. I'd like to think its played an immense part in my grammar structures. I wonder why it's hard for someone who knows SEE to understand ASL. Opinions please!
In your situation, I think it wasn't so much a superiority of SEE v. ASL; it was a matter of matching the signing to the needs of the client. You and the interpreter weren't a good "fit". The interpreter might have been a perfect fit for another client but not for you. It happens. I have some clients who "love" me, and always request me by name over other terps. Then, there are some clients with whom I've never "clicked". One client said I was "too English", and another said I was "too ASL". This usually happens when there is no "warm up" period with a new client; I just "plunge in", adjusting as the assignment progresses.
 
I wonder why it's hard for someone who knows SEE to understand ASL. Opinions please!

I find SEE a bit jarring, and ASL is also hard for me sometimes. I think in English, but when signing using all the English words is a bit slow and when watching ASL I can basically understand what is said but have trouble making the concepts into an English sentence in my head (I'd suck as an interpreter). I use PSE and it's the most comfortable for me--a mix of ASL and English signs with an English syntax. It has some of the speed of ASL with the more English struture.

(I'm hearing and learned to sign mostly from my brother, who is profoundly deaf, learned ASL first, but has a degree in English. He's amazingly able to switch from SEE, to PSE, to ASL, depending on to whom he's talking.)
 
Lol, didn't know you were an interpreter Reba, cool.

Aside all, interesting stuff.
 
My TWO cents

I grew up with SEE (in the classroom) and ASL (outside of the classroom). SEE is too English for me, and it lacks of any Deaf culture that is a huge part of my upbringing. It is too... uptight, in my opinion-- whereas with ASL you are much freer to express your thoughts and whatnot without worrying about impressing other people with your vocabulary.

With SEE, one has to use right vocabulary to match the context of their sentences. By using SEE, one is so preoccuppied with the vocabulary that one forgets about self, in my opinion. There is no "you" in SEE. You cannot reflect your personality in SEE, only your intelligence (which means JACK because you can show your intelligence in ASL as well!)

So many people think ASL will kill your chance to learn English-- I am the walking proof that it is a myth. It only requires YOUR acceptance of the fact that ASL is NOT ENGLISH or sub-English.

*EDITED:
I can switch between SEE, PSE, ASL (eduacated), and ASL (grassroots). It is not a problem for me-- Usually the most common form among the Deaf community (that are "educated") is PSE but I keep on using ASL. Of course until somebody objects: "Woah, TOO ASL!" then I have to move over closer to their world-- which is Hearing (even if they are STONE-DEAF) and use PSE. Not many Deaf people have the opportunity to see ASL among the Deaf community so I don't hold it against them.
I am usually disappointed if people objects to me using ASL. I let them using SEE, so they should let me using ASL. If not, I could just say: "OW! SEE, SEE HURTS MY EYES!" ;-) (punpun, Hint hint)
 
I grew up with SEE (in the classroom) and ASL (outside of the classroom). SEE is too English for me, and it lacks of any Deaf culture that is a huge part of my upbringing. It is too... uptight, in my opinion-- whereas with ASL you are much freer to express your thoughts and whatnot without worrying about impressing other people with your vocabulary.

I'm a professional writer, so I know how expressive English can be as a langauge. And yet--I tend to agree. SEE, to me, is attempting to shoe-horn a gestural language into a spoken language format, and it is awkward and uncomfortable. The reason ASL can be confusing for me is because I've not had enough experience with it. My brother and most friends who sign use PSE when talking to me, or at least a mix of PSE/ASL that isn't difficult for me.

I can switch between SEE, PSE, ASL (eduacated), and ASL (grassroots). It is not a problem for me-- Usually the most common form among the Deaf community (that are "educated") is PSE but I keep on using ASL.

My brother does this as well. I always find that a cool skill I wish I had. Interestingly, if I'm excited or angry and signing very quickly, I drop a lot of English syntax and lean more ASL.

I am usually disappointed if people objects to me using ASL. I let them using SEE, so they should let me using ASL. If not, I could just say: "OW! SEE, SEE HURTS MY EYES!" ;-) (punpun, Hint hint)

Heh. I can't see why someone would object. Might ask you to explain or repeat yourself, but I'd much rather someone show me how they speak than demand they speak as I do.
 
When I went to get my CI elevation to see if I qualify they hired an interpreter for the last 2 sessions. And for the first two sessions my audiologist was signing.

Anyway, I understood her perfectly she spoke at a normal speed and signed with SEE, this was extremely easy for me to understand her and joke around. Some words she couldn't sign so she wrote them down due to the complexity of my questions regarding the implant.

Next part where the interpreter came into play, she spoke rather rapidly and signed rapidly as well in ASL. I couldn't read her lips for crap worth and had trouble understanding some signs. Not to be biased as toward ASL because it's probably atributing to her personality more than the language itself, however even if she signed slow I would have still had trouble understanding her. I personally believe SEE formulates a better structure for understanding of what one person is trying to say as opposed to ASL. Perhaps I am biased, I never been on the side where ASL has been favorable.

I'm sure theres alot of people who prefer ASL over SEE, but what I want to know is why some people prefer it? Assume that they learned ASL to begin with they would be biased to it as well because they understood it better? But wouldn't it be better to teach them SEE first so that it would help their writing skills as mentioned in another thread. I'd like to think its played an immense part in my grammar structures. I wonder why it's hard for someone who knows SEE to understand ASL. Opinions please!

The simplest answer would be that SEE is a system devised for making an oral/auditory language visable, and what sounds correct does not usually sequence in the same way for what looks right. ASL sequences in a way that reconciles with the visual/spatial.

One who knows SEE would usually have a strong foundation in English. Because they process all language based on that foundation, they process a signed language in that way as well. Actually, adapating writing skills doesn't depend on the native language, but on the fact that a native language has been acquired.

Re: the terp. Just tell her that you prefer SEE. A terp is supposed to use the system that the client prefers.
 
I find SEE a bit jarring, and ASL is also hard for me sometimes. I think in English, but when signing using all the English words is a bit slow and when watching ASL I can basically understand what is said but have trouble making the concepts into an English sentence in my head (I'd suck as an interpreter). I use PSE and it's the most comfortable for me--a mix of ASL and English signs with an English syntax. It has some of the speed of ASL with the more English struture.

(I'm hearing and learned to sign mostly from my brother, who is profoundly deaf, learned ASL first, but has a degree in English. He's amazingly able to switch from SEE, to PSE, to ASL, depending on to whom he's talking.)

Off topic, but I watch my son code switch that way, often in the same conversation involving different signers. It's an amazing thing to watch, isn't it. Anyone who claims that manual language impedes language development needs to watch that form of code switching, and then decide who is language deprived and who isn't.
 
Off topic, but I watch my son code switch that way, often in the same conversation involving different signers. It's an amazing thing to watch, isn't it. Anyone who claims that manual language impedes language development needs to watch that form of code switching, and then decide who is language deprived and who isn't.


I remember when I was learning to sign. In a room full of signers--trust me, I felt language deprived. It gave me a taste, however, of what many deaf must go through--to be in a room where people are freely communicating and one is just getting a small bit of what is being said.

Slightly more on topic: I think we gravitate toward the language or dialect that is faster for us. I know if I have to voice what I'm signing, I either slow down a bit or use more SEE signs (to, it, is, etc.) but if I'm not talking out loud I use more PSE and when talking quickly about something and not putting an English sentence into my brain, my sign becomes far more ASL-like. I once met a deaf person who read lips well tell me there's a significant change in my lip movements when I start voicing. She thought I was deaf until I used my voice, and then suddenly my lips looked like a hearing persons and my sign changed somewhat.

So, perhaps whatever one's brain thinks in detemines what dialect (is that the right word?) is easiest? When my brain is using English it uses more English signs, when it's using more conceptual ideas and not letting English get in the way, it's a bit more ASL.

Just my personal experience. :)
 
I remember when I was learning to sign. In a room full of signers--trust me, I felt language deprived. It gave me a taste, however, of what many deaf must go through--to be in a room where people are freely communicating and one is just getting a small bit of what is being said.

Slightly more on topic: I think we gravitate toward the language or dialect that is faster for us. I know if I have to voice what I'm signing, I either slow down a bit or use more SEE signs (to, it, is, etc.) but if I'm not talking out loud I use more PSE and when talking quickly about something and not putting an English sentence into my brain, my sign becomes far more ASL-like. I once met a deaf person who read lips well tell me there's a significant change in my lip movements when I start voicing. She thought I was deaf until I used my voice, and then suddenly my lips looked like a hearing persons and my sign changed somewhat.

So, perhaps whatever one's brain thinks in detemines what dialect (is that the right word?) is easiest? When my brain is using English it uses more English signs, when it's using more conceptual ideas and not letting English get in the way, it's a bit more ASL.

Just my personal experience. :)[/QUO

You have hit the nail on the head! And I agree--I learned sign by immersing myself in deaf culture where there was no other option if I wanted to communicate. Definately a transforming experience!
 
You have hit the nail on the head! And I agree--I learned sign by immersing myself in deaf culture where there was no other option if I wanted to communicate. Definately a transforming experience!

I did some of that, and I mainly refused to write rather than sign what I needed to say (or fingerspell if needed). One of the reasons I have a large vocabulary is because I am a terrible speller. ;)
 
Back
Top