Question from a near-teacher

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sculleywr

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What should a person do when someone tries to force them into a teaching position that, though not knowing the signs fully and acknowledging that fact openly, still has the zeal to teach and the ability to learn quicker than he can teach? I am asking this because I almost ended up in that position. The position I was mainly taking was as a camp counselor, and the only leverage I had to get the job was a "ability to communicate on a BASIC level with the deaf using ASL and/or CASE." (quote from my application). They siezed on that and said basically that if I got the job, I would be teaching. I would have been more than willing to give it my best shot and not go above my own abilities, but I didn't really feel qualified, even if the children weren't over the age of 12 years old. I did not end up with the job, so if you would disapprove, the answer would only serve to point me in the right direction for if I have to make the decision again. Of course, I will have at least gotten one year of ASL classes under my belt from TTU before that decision comes around.I will only be teaching a week's worth of classes per group. I guess the question here is, if you end up getting made to teach, completely willing to, but unqualified, would you accept the position or would you rather turn it down? If you accepted, what steps would you use to teach them and what attitude would you have as an inexperienced teacher?
 
If you know you are not qualified to teach in sign language, then do not accept the job. The entreaties of people who don't know better (e.g. "Oh, you know enough, you'll be fine" or "But there's no one else who can do it!") should not affect your decision.

Actually, I'm unclear from your post as to whether you would have been teaching sign language, or teaching IN sign language. I double my response if the former; you can't take one year of sign language and then start teaching.
 
Hmm. Good question.

If I weren't ASL fluent (and I am ASL fluent) and I was offered a job, I'd turn it down. Teachers who don't know ASL are actually a prevalent phenomenon and the problems with that are plenty.

When I was younger, we caught on to the adult figures who couldn't sign pretty quickly. If you want, I'll gladly share some of my hellraiser stories. Ever try calling a teacher a two-assed donkey turd eater to his face and get away with it? ;)

Oh, we were bad! I'd give credit to most deaf kids -- they're sharp enough to really work the communication barrier against teachers. The communication barrier also works against the teaching. Can you imagine explaining geometry to teenagers in Rome when you know only a tiny bit of Italian? It hurts the children and their opportunities to learn.

On the other hand, I think it rocks you have so much motivation. Why not do some mentoring and big brother stuff?

Totally random question by the way, are you deaf or hearing?
 
Plus it was for a position which is 6 weeks' duration at best, as a camp counselor so no real, lasting harm would have been done.
 
Endymion said:
Hmm. Good question.

If I weren't ASL fluent (and I am ASL fluent) and I was offered a job, I'd turn it down. Teachers who don't know ASL are actually a prevalent phenomenon and the problems with that are plenty.

When I was younger, we caught on to the adult figures who couldn't sign pretty quickly. If you want, I'll gladly share some of my hellraiser stories. Ever try calling a teacher a two-assed donkey turd eater to his face and get away with it? ;)

Oh, we were bad! I'd give credit to most deaf kids -- they're sharp enough to really work the communication barrier against teachers. The communication barrier also works against the teaching. Can you imagine explaining geometry to teenagers in Rome when you know only a tiny bit of Italian? It hurts the children and their opportunities to learn.

On the other hand, I think it rocks you have so much motivation. Why not do some mentoring and big brother stuff?

Totally random question by the way, are you deaf or hearing?
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That was basically what it was. I would only have enough time to teach the manual alphabet, simple signs (How are you, What's your name, etc.) and a song (Again simple, like Jesus loves me or Father I Adore You).

My first actual introduction to ASL wasn't too good. I went through the class and didn't learn until, oh, a few weeks ago that what I was learning wasn't really ASL, just SEE. Anywho, I learned that my teacher really doesn't like ASL and is still teaching at the co-op. If the co-op is still there when I graduate college, I am going to teach the classes, because she has little working knowledge of any deaf culture. I know more than she and I haven't even learned too much. I find that it should be required to learn the culture if your class plans on going to deaf events (and it does). It tends to establish rapport with the deaf people at the place you are going if you actually learn at least the ways to be courteous to them.

I identify as borderline hearing. I have otitis media with effusion and it sometimes causes random holes in my hearing, normally accompanied by tinnitus. I am going to the audiologist near my school when I get back in TN to have permanent tubes put in. Hopefully that will help me hear better. It might help when I graduate and go to get certified to be an interpreter.
 
I'd like to echo Endy's sentiment; as far as I'm concerned, the biggest problem with education deaf children is that teachers cannot adequately communicate with their students. Being able to hold a somewhat in-depth conversation with a deaf friend does not equate being able to explain abstract concepts to a group of students.

Personally, I don't think the classroom is the proper place for a teacher to learn to communicate with students, unless they are learning in a classroom separate from the students. It's a hinderance, at best, to the students, and quite possibly a set up for failure.
 
ayala920 said:
I'd like to echo Endy's sentiment; as far as I'm concerned, the biggest problem with education deaf children is that teachers cannot adequately communicate with their students. Being able to hold a somewhat in-depth conversation with a deaf friend does not equate being able to explain abstract concepts to a group of students.

Personally, I don't think the classroom is the proper place for a teacher to learn to communicate with students, unless they are learning in a classroom separate from the students. It's a hinderance, at best, to the students, and quite possibly a set up for failure.
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I wouldn't be learning in the same classroom. I would have what I am teaching down pat before I taught it. However, I am not teaching deaf or HOH students. I would be teaching, like I said, basic signs and the alphabet, both of which I have down. And I would learn each song the week or two before that. Same thing I did when I taught experimental science in high school.
 
sculleywr said:
I wouldn't be learning in the same classroom. I would have what I am teaching down pat before I taught it. However, I am not teaching deaf or HOH students. I would be teaching, like I said, basic signs and the alphabet, both of which I have down. And I would learn each song the week or two before that. Same thing I did when I taught experimental science in high school.
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I've been thinking . . . I'd like to teach you, sculleywr, how to work on a Mercedes-Benz. I know where the battery is, the oil dipstick, where to add the oil, what else is important? Would you still like to have me teach you? See what I mean? If you're not fluent with ASL backwards/forwards, upside down and right side up, inside and out, you should not be teaching it. Hey, how about if I teach you how to drive a semi truck? I can do that, I have a class A commercial driver license and have driven truck. Experience talks, inexperience/no working knowledge walks.
 
pek1 said:
I've been thinking . . . I'd like to teach you, sculleywr, how to work on a Mercedes-Benz. I know where the battery is, the oil dipstick, where to add the oil, what else is important? Would you still like to have me teach you? See what I mean? If you're not fluent with ASL backwards/forwards, upside down and right side up, inside and out, you should not be teaching it. Hey, how about if I teach you how to drive a semi truck? I can do that, I have a class A commercial driver license and have driven truck. Experience talks, inexperience/no working knowledge walks.
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I understood the point perfectly, I was only giving what I would have ended up teaching. I wasn't taking a stand on either side of the discussion. I wouldn't have asked the question if I had, now would I?
 
sculleywr said:
And I would learn each song the week or two before that.
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First of all, I'm sorry you didn't get the answers you were hoping for, or at least I'm assuming this is the case based on your responses.

Secondly, this is my own opinion as a hearing interpreter and anyone else should please weigh in, but I don't think teaching hearing kids songs "interpreted" into sign should be part of any ASL classroom. They are usually transliterated from the English, and do not accomplish the goal of teaching students that ASL is a separate language...and that native users generally don't "sing" English songs in that language. (There are exceptions like the national anthem, but there are true ASL interpretations of our anthem.) I understand hearing parents think it's so cute when their kids sign "Jesus Loves Me" or whatever, but it doesn't really reflect a good understanding or respect of ASL as a separate language.

Too many times when people find out I'm an interpreter they want to show me the song they learned years ago in "sign language," and they then proceed to display an absolute butchery of ASL signs in the completely wrong order, because they simply learned how to parrot what was shown them and did not understand what they were doing, and now don't really remember any of it. It's kind of cringe-worthy.

Better to seek out original texts in ASL and teach them, if you're going to go that route, but this would require a fairly advanced grasp of the language.
 
Interpretrator said:
First of all, I'm sorry you didn't get the answers you were hoping for, or at least I'm assuming this is the case based on your responses.

Secondly, this is my own opinion as a hearing interpreter and anyone else should please weigh in, but I don't think teaching hearing kids songs "interpreted" into sign should be part of any ASL classroom. They are usually transliterated from the English, and do not accomplish the goal of teaching students that ASL is a separate language...and that native users generally don't "sing" English songs in that language. (There are exceptions like the national anthem, but there are true ASL interpretations of our anthem.) I understand hearing parents think it's so cute when their kids sign "Jesus Loves Me" or whatever, but it doesn't really reflect a good understanding or respect of ASL as a separate language.

Too many times when people find out I'm an interpreter they want to show me the song they learned years ago in "sign language," and they then proceed to display an absolute butchery of ASL signs in the completely wrong order, because they simply learned how to parrot what was shown them and did not understand what they were doing, and now don't really remember any of it. It's kind of cringe-worthy.

Better to seek out original texts in ASL and teach them, if you're going to go that route, but this would require a fairly advanced grasp of the language.
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I never learned ASL grammar in my first week-long class. This is only a week-long class. I don't think that teaching a class of 8-year-olds for a week would be able to even skim the surface, and I don't think that they would be ABLE to learn the language in that time. Secondly, I was using sign language songs done by deaf people and for deaf people. I have the videos available and I would have been using them. I understand what it is like to see a person doing sign the wrong way. I saw a lot of that in our homeschool group's commencement ceremony. Absolute torture. Thing is, I would be sourcing a book. I had a book available that my SLID head referred me to use. I wouldn't be stupid enough to go in without a book. I am not sure whether or not I should HAVE taken it. I didn't end up with the job anyways, so I don't have to worry about it now.
 
sculleywr said:
I wouldn't be learning in the same classroom. I would have what I am teaching down pat before I taught it. However, I am not teaching deaf or HOH students. I would be teaching, like I said, basic signs and the alphabet, both of which I have down. And I would learn each song the week or two before that. Same thing I did when I taught experimental science in high school.
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Personally, rather than trying to teach something in which you are not proficient, I would suggest that you do the Deaf community and their language a favor and use this opportunity to teach the people trying to hire you that ASL is a very difficult and complicated language that takes years to become fluent with. Let them know that learning ASL is just like learning any other foreign language, and it is not something you can do overnight. You yourself have admitted that you thought you were learning ASL only to discover you were being taught a form of manually coded English. You won't be teaching dD/hh students, and that is probably a good thing, because the chances are great that their skills would be superior to your own. You will however, be representing the language of the Deaf to a segment of the hearing population, and there is already far too much inaccurate information beign spread already. Don't contribute by attempting to teach something to another that you have not even learned sufficiently yourself.
 
jillio said:
Personally, rather than trying to teach something in which you are not proficient, I would suggest that you do the Deaf community and their language a favor and use this opportunity to teach the people trying to hire you that ASL is a very difficult and complicated language that takes years to become fluent with. Let them know that learning ASL is just like learning any other foreign language, and it is not something you can do overnight. You yourself have admitted that you thought you were learning ASL only to discover you were being taught a form of manually coded English. You won't be teaching dD/hh students, and that is probably a good thing, because the chances are great that their skills would be superior to your own. You will however, be representing the language of the Deaf to a segment of the hearing population, and there is already far too much inaccurate information beign spread already. Don't contribute by attempting to teach something to another that you have not even learned sufficiently yourself.
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Ok, thanks for the input.
 
jillio said:
Personally, rather than trying to teach something in which you are not proficient, I would suggest that you do the Deaf community and their language a favor and use this opportunity to teach the people trying to hire you that ASL is a very difficult and complicated language that takes years to become fluent with.
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Nicely said. I was offered a job teaching ASL a couple of years ago, and it also would have been a short, very basic course (the alphabet, names of family members and other common nouns, etc.). I wouldn't call myself fluent, i.e. native-like, in my signing but I was certainly proficient enough to teach this stuff easily.

However, I turned it down, because I didn't think the people hiring had tried hard enough to find a deaf teacher, culturally Deaf or otherwise. The person hiring was HOH and familiar with Deaf culture so it was a little extra hard to say no, since I didn't have to educate her about my reasons for doing so. (Usually this is not the case though!) In the end, a deaf person did end up teaching the course, and for that reason I was very glad I had turned it down.

Incidentally, I do NOT believe that only deaf people can and should teach ASL. By no means. I have had Deaf, CODA, and non-CODA hearing teachers of ASL and in my case unfortunately the Deaf teacher was actually the worst of all of them -- not because of her deafness but just because she really didn't know how to teach ASL despite being a native user. Sometimes people are better language teachers when they are not teaching their native language, because they have systematically learned the rules and know the language from a pedagogical (teaching) standpoint. BUT, my hearing teachers, CODA and otherwise, had native-like fluency and that was the crucial part. Even when only learning the alphabet, or colors, or whatever.
 
Interpretrator said:
Incidentally, I do NOT believe that only deaf people can and should teach ASL. By no means. I have had Deaf, CODA, and non-CODA hearing teachers of ASL and in my case unfortunately the Deaf teacher was actually the worst of all of them -- not because of her deafness but just because she really didn't know how to teach ASL despite being a native user.
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Amen to that! My one and only ASL class was with a teacher who was profoundly Deaf and a native ASL user (had deaf parents too), but he wasn't a very good teacher. His college degree was actually in Biology, or something like that. English teachers are expected to go to school to study English, but it seems that anyone who is a native user of ASL is invited to be a teacher.
 
Interpretrator and ayala920 hit it right on the nail. A native speaker of any language does not automatically qualify him to be a teacher. Most native speakers, unless they have received formal training in educational and applied linguistics, cannot make the rules of their language explicit because they are largely internalized and implicit in their brains. They would need to make the rules explicit (this is called teaching grammar) in order to explain how, say, Japanese works to non-native Japanese speakers.

Native ASL speakers may provide an excellent model for descriptive grammar of ASL, but they would have to be fluent in English as well if they will rely on teaching grammar to teach their students. They will have to be able to distinguish what constitutes "standard" ASL from, say home signs or local dialects. It's the same idea with other foreign languages. If you take Chinese in school, you study standard Mandarin (the Beijing dialect) the official spoken language of PRC. You want a qualified teacher who will correct you and explain why in English when you unwittingly say "I copulate with cats" instead of "I have a cold" because your sound perception isn't accustomed to producing different pitches that exists outside of the English phonetic system. Right? Unless you actually want to say that to your Chinese-speaking mother-in-law... ;)

Teaching grammar relies on the assumption that the students already knows English and will compare its grammar with the grammar of ASL. In my opinion, it works best for languages that are closely related and have/had extensive contact, like English and French ("house" v. "maison") or Spanish and Italian ("casa" v. "casa" but they should be pronounced differently).

I personally wouldn't elect to be an ASL teacher if someone asked me, unless I was properly qualified and felt confident enough to teach. There are many ASL idioms and metaphors that do not make sense to me if they're translated in English and even so, I wouldn't know how to explain them without agonizing over the details of translation.

Just to wrap up my ramblings, I'd like to expand Endymion's point about how the lack of proficiency in Italian can hurt the Roman teenagers when you're trying to teach them geometry. Mangling another language to children will send them a subtle but powerful message about how you perceive their language. This, in turn, will degrade and devalue the language in usage. Now imagine how this will impact the psyche of deaf children when there is already a scarred history of oppression of most, if not all, indigenous sign languages out there.

And thank you for asking us. I appreciate it when people come to AD.com and ask for feedback in regards to sticky situations.

Good luck!
 
Here I am a year later and again in the same position, with a few exceptions. One, my friends at the nearby Deaf College said that with what I knew right now and by my fluency talking to them, I could actually teach the basics of ASL in English for a week-long course with kids, enough so that they could do a simple song for their parents at home at the least, which would be all that I could cover in that short time.
The second thing that has changed is that, supposing the camps don't work out, the person who taught signing in my home school group's co-op said that she would be willing to let me teach her ASL (her basis is SEE, as were most of the hearing people learning any signing back that far.)
The people who say I would be equipped now for such a task include not only students at the college, but also teachers there as well, and, while I most definitely would take the opportunity to do the classes at the camps, I would want to know exactly what the one at home would want out of the class as well. This, also, leaves the possibility that, at the camps, some of the counselors might get interested and want to know more, leading me down a much more complicated road. With all these teaching possibilities ahead, adding an education minor might help, since it might be what I end up doing later on down the road.
Just some thoughts from me. Since nothing is concreted yet, I will not know until later. I have a camp Application to fill out.

En el amor interminable de Cristo,
Sculleywr
 
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