Playing keyboard doesn't sound good with digital aids (testing Naída V UP now)

[VincentG]

My audiogram is just a simple 70-120dB ski slope and I like to make music (especially recorder and keyboard). With analog HAs (Phonak Superfronts, or Widex L32) this sounds nice. But now, analogs are gone and I have to switch to digital ones. I'm testing the Naida V UP now, got them yesterday (with a seperate music program). In many situations its sound is nice, except when making music. When I play a single long note, it's probably the WistleBlock which thinks it is feedback and tries to cut it off, generating noise and echo. So we'll have to turn WhistleBlock off at next appointment. And also most notes are too soft, especially low notes but also medium and high notes. And I feel that even when WhistleBlock is turned off it still doesn't sound as good as analog aids. So we'll turn off all advanced features (in the music program) and try to get it as close to analogs as possible at next appointment and see how it works. Are here other musicans who recognize these problems?
And there are small white things in the earhooks of the naidas, I've read somewhere that it is not good for sound quality, so do I have to ask for earhooks without white things in it? What's exactly the difference when considering making music?

 

[john57]

WHat you have is a damped tone hook with a mechanical audio filter to damp the output peaks that usually occurs around 1kHz. Those filters can cause problems since they can easily get plugged up easy with oil and wax that might migrate to the tone hook. I usually remove them for good. I use a solid core wire with the right flexibility and push the filter out to the back of the hook and it should then fell out. You will get a bit more output and the peaks will be a bit sharper as well. It is your ears and you decide if you want those dampers in place. It does no harm to the aids itself leaving them out permanently. This is not medical advice.

 

[kokonut]

Mine is a Ceilo2 Siemens digital hearing aid I got last year. Works wonderfully when I play the piano everyday. All the notes are clear, crisp, the right tone, overall feel and such. No feedback or echoes or damped sound. This is true for any other instruments. So, I'm quite happy with this one. Except I need to get a new ear mold.

My ragtime piano blog.
Ragtime Piano!

How well you play the piano? I am always looking for deaf/hh pianists that I can add to my blog links.

Go to the Association of Adult Musicians with Hearing Loss. They have discussions about hearing aid compatability and music issues, maybe ask them. Perhaps one of them might have tha same hearing aid you wear.
Association of Adult Musicians with Hearing Loss - Welcome to AAMHL!

 

[VamPyroX]

My hearing aid is digital. I switched to this one a little over 2 years ago.

When I first got it, I noticed the anti-feedback feature when I was listening to television, movies, or music. My audiologist added a feature called MTV mode (music television mode). This feature has no anti-feedback. So, during everyday activities... I use the first mode (default/standard). When I'm in the car listening to my CDs or watching my DVDs, I switch to the third mode... the MTV mode. It helps me a lot.

I am considering buying an analog hearing aid for personal use in the near future.

 

[Wendy H]

Phonak Naida V UP

I was told by an audiologist that digitals do make sounds 'softer' as opposed to analogs. Even with adjustments made to the digital aid ( Phonak Naida V UP on trial basis) have been made as close to my Phonak Superfronts, it's still not the same.

The Phonak rep. also took out a small white piece out of the hook which is probably the 'tone hook.' I did notice a big difference. However, the sounds on the Phonak still do not have that same 'loudness' quality that I'm so used to. This, I definitely miss.

Maybe I need to return to the audiologist for further adjustments. I'm not sure if this is something that could be adjustable or this is something I really DO need to get used to.

One more thing: I did some researching and found that the Phonak company will continue to make a few analogs. So, for those (including myself) that were told analogs would be discontinued, this information may not be accurate. One just has to make a request to get whatever analog Phonak, Starkey and Unitron are making. These are the companies I was told that will continue to make a few analogs. Now, I don't know if this reference is true but that is what I recently found out.

Leo, where are you? Am surprised you've not responded to the above postings yet.

 

[Hask12]

Those small white things are filters and can be removed. Even so I was never happy with the music program that the naidas provided. I felt I got a much better sound from Resound Azures.

 

[ljjehl]

Wendy, you can't expect me to respond to everything??!!?? ;D

Hask12 is right, the white things inside the hooks were filters to keep the aids as moisture resistant as possible. It didn't do me much good (the three tabs on the Naida's body were the main filters)

I would like to work on the music program on the aids, but have yet to get 'er done...the main issue for me is figuring out why my FM receivers is cutting off and on, beeping in SoundFlow when there is no FM transmitter in use, etc.

I will be having an appointment with a phonak rep this coming Wednesday (Oct. 7). If there's anybody that needs some questions answered, send me a holler and I'll add that to my questions that I need answered.

I expect to have a fully automated hearing aid with all Easy features enabled but the easyPhone. Currently the EasyFM is being a glitch (read FM issues above) which I expect to have resolved in this sitting coming up.

Read this link: https://eservices.phonakpro.com/pho.../hearing_instruments/nadia/faq_nadiav.html#q5

This is what is advertised for the Naida V aids (you can select on top for your version), so we should get what we paid for. I received a response from the Phonak USA HQ (FM dept.) that suggested that I should have my easyFM disabled in SoundFlow(what are they trying to tell me, that it's defective??)
If so, I expect an upgrade or another resolution to make this issue non-existent.

Anybody that has had good success with their Music program, please add here...otherwise just add the complaints, and I'll see if I can get this worked on for my aids and be able to give you some feedback.....

 

[VincentG]

Thanks for all comments! It really helps me in the expectations of the best possible sound of the Naidas.
I am not very good in playing piano (level 3 or so), but I just like to play a melody, maybe with a bass note or a drum track or so. "Common" music with many instruments is rather complicated for my ears, I often can't hear the melody when too many instruments play together. But it is the "common" music where the Naidas is good at, and in MY simple music (On top of old smokey, House of the rising sun) the sound is not what I would like: too soft and advanced features disturb the sound (especially the longer notes). Yeah, I know that my own composed music may be awful, but I haven't asked my aids to make an official judgement and apply NoiseBlock (or WhistleBlock) on MY music, and leave the music which I do not like, completely intact. Aids are sometimes getting TOO intelligent, in my opinion.
But in commonday situations (environment sounds, communication), the Naidas provide really fine sound which I enjoy.
If it is true that analogs are (still) being produced and deliverable, I'll try to test them for sure. It will be very difficult to choose between analogs and digitals, I'm afraid.
I won't remove the white things in the earhooks myself, as the Naidas are not mine (yet), but I'll ask my audicien about it.
Well, I was also thinking about using a good headphone (without hearing aids) to hear keyboard music. Do others do it too (with >70dB loss)? Is it dangerous for the ears when it is set too loud?

 

[ljjehl]

Thanks for all comments! It really helps me in the expectations of the best possible sound of the Naidas.
I am not very good in playing piano (level 3 or so), but I just like to play a melody, maybe with a bass note or a drum track or so. "Common" music with many instruments is rather complicated for my ears, I often can't hear the melody when too many instruments play together. But it is the "common" music where the Naidas is good at, and in MY simple music (On top of old smokey, House of the rising sun) the sound is not what I would like: too soft and advanced features disturb the sound (especially the longer notes). Yeah, I know that my own composed music may be awful, but I haven't asked my aids to make an official judgement and apply NoiseBlock (or WhistleBlock) on MY music, and leave the music which I do not like, completely intact. Aids are sometimes getting TOO intelligent, in my opinion.
But in commonday situations (environment sounds, communication), the Naidas provide really fine sound which I enjoy.
If it is true that analogs are (still) being produced and deliverable, I'll try to test them for sure. It will be very difficult to choose between analogs and digitals, I'm afraid.
I won't remove the white things in the earhooks myself, as the Naidas are not mine (yet), but I'll ask my audicien about it.
Well, I was also thinking about using a good headphone (without hearing aids) to hear keyboard music. Do others do it too (with >70dB loss)? Is it dangerous for the ears when it is set too loud?

No more dangerous than cranking up your aids. Common sense approach says to increase until you are near the threshold of your ears hurting, that's the level that can cause damage over a period of time. You might have difficulties finding a headphone that increases the level to your hearing level without distortion, but I have not tried to go down that path yet. I was working on using my two built-in FM ML10i receivers to achieve what you are doing as for music....but my current issues is preventing me from doing this....

Hopefully there are others brave enough to add their comments regarding music or FM issues.......as both can go hand in hand if configured properly....

 

[SkullChick]

My audiogram is just a simple 70-120dB ski slope and I like to make music (especially recorder and keyboard). With analog HAs (Phonak Superfronts, or Widex L32) this sounds nice. But now, analogs are gone and I have to switch to digital ones. I'm testing the Naida V UP now, got them yesterday (with a seperate music program). In many situations its sound is nice, except when making music. When I play a single long note, it's probably the WistleBlock which thinks it is feedback and tries to cut it off, generating noise and echo. So we'll have to turn WhistleBlock off at next appointment. And also most notes are too soft, especially low notes but also medium and high notes. And I feel that even when WhistleBlock is turned off it still doesn't sound as good as analog aids. So we'll turn off all advanced features (in the music program) and try to get it as close to analogs as possible at next appointment and see how it works. Are here other musicans who recognize these problems?
And there are small white things in the earhooks of the naidas, I've read somewhere that it is not good for sound quality, so do I have to ask for earhooks without white things in it? What's exactly the difference when considering making music?

why it seem like all audi like to lie that analogs are gone and discontinued? its not true! theres still couple out there and most powerful ha oticon sumo DM can be programmed as analog and theres analog version of it too (E and Xp)

 

[ljjehl]

why it seem like all audi like to lie that analogs are gone and discontinued? its not true! theres still couple out there and most powerful ha oticon sumo DM can be programmed as analog and theres analog version of it too (E and Xp)

Could be because of the computer age? I would think it would make it easier to increase the gain to higher levels without distortion....but I also think the biggest issue with digital aids is the problems long term analog users have in adapting to the extra capabilities that the aids seem to have. It does take some time adapting from analog to digital, which I probably helped myself with about 6 years ago with my first digital aid (Seimens Triano SP) In that case, I overrode my audi's recommendation for a high powered analog (Starkey) in order to satisfy the DARS new direction of the digital age. I have not looked back.....and that may be why I seem to have little difficulties adapting with the naida other than the FM glitches....

 

[ljjehl]

Music program for Naida aids

Wanted to make sure I get everybody's comments....thanks for your support!!

Anybody out there interested in adding comments or questions for the music program on the Naidas? I may get mine reconfigured if I can get the FM setup satisfactorily, I have an appointment at 3 tomorrow, so time is of essence!! Thanks...​

 

[ljjehl]

Music program for Naida aids

Wanted to make sure I get everybody's comments....thanks for your support!! Today is the date, at 3...so thanks for your comments...

Anybody out there interested in adding comments or questions for the music program on the Naidas? I may get mine reconfigured if I can get the FM setup satisfactorily, I have an appointment at 3 tomorrow, so time is of essence!! Thanks...

 

[thesynthfreq]

Hi ! I can relate to this issue! I use Phonak Naida V UP hearing aids and I am a musician and composer of 20 years, I am 26 now. Anyway I used analogue hearing aids before (phonak superfront is my fav) but now that i have changed to Naida V UP, I do not like the music program much. I am so disapointed at the sound quality and distortion I get. I play synthesizers and piano and I tried using the music program but it just is not clear enough in any frequency but bass frequencies. I am bummed out because without my hearing aids, my amp wont get loud enough and wearing headphones start to overheat in my ear and still are not loud enough. I tried wearing the Naidas and headphones which just sound worse. I also had that echoing tone over everything with was eliminated by killing the Feedback program. Thank goodness. I am starting to worry because I cant practice music without my hearing aids or with them, its distorted or too soft to hear much. I write music everyday and now that I only have digital hearing aids, which are great with everything else but music, I dont know what I can do about it. My piano sounds very metallic and my synthesizers just over-distort my hearing aids. With the Phonak superfronts my piano sounded very full and rich. My Naidas just seem to distort everything and make a lot of noise in the background and drown out what i am trying to listen to in music and waveforms. I am finding that I am not as enthused about playing music because of poor sound quality in the music program, Its depressing. The only thing I like about it though is when I play my synthesizer through the amp and the Icom together and only one keyboard at a time,( i play 6 synths now), it sounds like a movie theater, very neat effect, that only thing I do like about it. Anyway I hope that yours will sound better once the feedback program is turned off. My audiogram is 88db at 250hz to 110+db at 2000kHz. I am going to ask what my MPO is set at and see what I can have changed tomorow at my 3rd appointment.
By the way, Good luck with ur appointment!
Keep rockin those keys!!

 

[overthepond]

It had been interesting reading people's thoughts on Phonak Naida and Music, I am profoundly deaf and had been since birth, I never had been interested in music until i got my Cochlear implant along with Analouge hearing aid, tried the Phonak naida and didn't like it much.
Music had became a new world for me however there were no guaratee that Cochlear implant works well for music. I now are able to pick out notes, pitches, types of intruments, I have been attending to alot of musical events/therapies. Tomorrow is another day at Cochlear implant centre where they teach us on how to listen, learn to play an intruments.

Anyway I wish you all the best of luck in sorting out the HA's you have got so you can get as much pleasure from listening to music.

 

[ljjehl]

Hi ! I can relate to this issue! I use Phonak Naida V UP hearing aids and I am a musician and composer of 20 years, I am 26 now. Anyway I used analogue hearing aids before (phonak superfront is my fav) but now that i have changed to Naida V UP, I do not like the music program much. I am so disapointed at the sound quality and distortion I get. I play synthesizers and piano and I tried using the music program but it just is not clear enough in any frequency but bass frequencies. I am bummed out because without my hearing aids, my amp wont get loud enough and wearing headphones start to overheat in my ear and still are not loud enough. I tried wearing the Naidas and headphones which just sound worse. I also had that echoing tone over everything with was eliminated by killing the Feedback program. Thank goodness. I am starting to worry because I cant practice music without my hearing aids or with them, its distorted or too soft to hear much. I write music everyday and now that I only have digital hearing aids, which are great with everything else but music, I dont know what I can do about it. My piano sounds very metallic and my synthesizers just over-distort my hearing aids. With the Phonak superfronts my piano sounded very full and rich. My Naidas just seem to distort everything and make a lot of noise in the background and drown out what i am trying to listen to in music and waveforms. I am finding that I am not as enthused about playing music because of poor sound quality in the music program, Its depressing. The only thing I like about it though is when I play my synthesizer through the amp and the Icom together and only one keyboard at a time,( i play 6 synths now), it sounds like a movie theater, very neat effect, that only thing I do like about it. Anyway I hope that yours will sound better once the feedback program is turned off. My audiogram is 88db at 250hz to 110+db at 2000kHz. I am going to ask what my MPO is set at and see what I can have changed tomorow at my 3rd appointment.
By the way, Good luck with ur appointment!
Keep rockin those keys!!

Very interesting knowing about the issues with the feedback control. I will keep that in mind when I get my replacement FM receiver (Phonak-repaired was faulty too, go figure) I did adjust the background sounds down to bring a bit more voice out, as The background music obliterated the voice (I used Michael Jackson's music as an example, because of the beat.....)even the beat seemed drowned out by the high frequency music portion

Thanks a lot for your feedback......and keep em' coming!! I may have finished my appointment with the Phonak rep yesterday, but I'm nowhere near finished yet...I still am waiting on why the EasyFM function of the Naida in SoundFlow is broken in my aids. believe it or not, your audiogram starts a bit better than mine, as mine starts at 95 dB and ends ski sloped at 110 dB...

 

[ljjehl]

I decided to run my updated Music program on Yahoo music. I think it sounds a lot better, I can separate the music from the voices.....before the adjustment yesterday, the voices were gone and only the music was there...it seemed like a jumbled mess....

It's hard to tell if there more room for improvement, as I'm not a musician like some of you out there....I only have a comparison from the old days of hip-hop music and the drawn out melodies of Journey, etc......so far I like it!!

 

[ljjehl]

I play synthesizers and piano and I tried using the music program but it just is not clear enough in any frequency but bass frequencies

I think this can be adjusted to your preferences. It almost sounds like the bass might be overpowering the moderates and highs? Your audi can try a test setting to see if it helps....or get a Phonak rep involved to help configure it more....

 

[VincentG]

Nice music program

Two weeks ago my audiologist and me adjusted my Naidas (2nd appointment). We have filled up all available slots to test various music programs. Well, P3 is really beautiful! It is much better than P2 (the initial music program when I received the aids) and even slightly better than analog aids too in most aspects. Here is it:

Amplification diagram for left aid (right is about the same):

Settings:
WhistleBlock: OFF; WindBlock: OFF; NoiseBlock: Off; SoundRecover: OFF; Audiozoom: Omnidirectional; BassBoost: ON (+3db); Earhooks: Undamped

Features:
Maximum amplification and maximum power output at 130-140dB
Crystal clear sounds and very powerful bass
Close to feedback curve, so put earpieces tight! (you can always lower the volume if necessary)
Much less distortion than in a standard music program
Ideal for playing recorder, guitar, piano etc.

So if you have Naidas and don't like the musical sound as much as with analogs, just print out this program and take it to your audie to experiment with

My P4 is similiar but with slightly lower amplitude, much higher compression and SoundRecover ON. SoundRecover is the cause of all distortion when playing clean notes (even in mid range) because there are almost always overtones exceeding 1.7kHz (or whatever frequency you have in SoundRecover) which get more or less distorted. Well, there are some very high sounds I can hear better with SoundRecover, but I don't find it useful for music (as opposed to speech - SoundRecover is turned on in my automatic programs). So at next appointment we'll turn SoundRecover off for my P4, leave P3 intact and try a completely different program at P2.

Note: my ears are probably not developed as well as with some other people in this thread, as I cannot distinguish voices and instruments when multiple of them they are playing together. Different people have different musical preferences. Below is my audiogram so if your ears are better than mine (i.e. less hearing loss), my setup for P3 will be too loud for you. If you have a program you really like, just share with us!

Audiogram of my left ear: