Mother of 7 y/o Deaf girl

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deafdyke said:
How about ALL of them?!?!?! Inclusion is being PUSHED as the ANSWER for ALL kids with disabilties including dhh!
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You have attended all of the teacher of the deaf preparation programs? You obviously didn't attend mine because that was not remotely what was taught. If mainstreaming worked for all students with no services, I would be out of a job.
 
deafdyke said:
Did they tell you about the older dhh mainstreamed teen boys who are so lonely they seek the services of "professionals?" You really should read up a LOT in this area...It's VERY relevant and you're not doing anyone any favors by pretending, it doesn't exist. Great the AVT and auditory oral brigade didn't tell you this is an area of concern. Don't waffle and pretend everything's fine.
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What are you talking about? Are you saying that d/Deaf men seek out prostitutes? Now I know you are cracked.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
You have attended all of the teacher of the deaf preparation programs? You obviously didn't attend mine because that was not remotely what was taught. If mainstreaming worked for all students with no services, I would be out of a job.
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LOL!!!!!! No, you would still have a job. You don't work at Mary Hare, Boston Spa, Clarke, CID, DePaul, Sunshine Cottage or a school with advanced elementay grades You teach PRESCHOOL/kindergarten for dhh kids. One of those "schools" that's a program designed to prepare kids to be MAINSTREAMED, b/c GUESS WHAT? We don't have a Mary Hare or Boston Spa (St. John's Catholic School for the Deaf) preschool to high school graduation oral school any more. (although we did back when most Deaf Schools taught orally and before Mystic Oral School, Boston School for the Deaf closed. We even had TWO state oral schools....Mystic Oral School and the PA Auditory Oral School which is now Scranton State School for the Deaf. The first one closed in 1980, and the second one switched from auditory oral to a Sign using approach in 1976.
http://depaulhearingandspeech.org/history/ "Additionally, DePaul is one of only a handful of LSL schools in the nation who will teach children above age six. "
You do realize that the GRADED formal oral school (ie NOT mainstream inclusion based) program is DEAD. Even public oral school programs (where there's a critical mass of dhh peers, taught by TODs) are DEAD. There are very few oral high school programs. You do realize that the push for mainstreaming is NOT as radical as it was back in the '60's when Clarke mainstreamed it's grads right? You do realize that the trend for oral deaf education is now more on an auditory verbal style approach where even oral deaf preschools aren't used right? That doesn't mean that oral deaf preschools/kindergartens or even graded programs/schools (whether public or private) don't exist. They do, but they're not well publicized, and it's hard to get students into them b/c of our government's fixtation on inclusion for ALL disabled kids. Also, your program isn't large enough to survive as a Deaf School. It also has HEARING students.
 
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Teacherofthedeaf said:
What are you talking about? Are you saying that d/Deaf men seek out prostitutes? Now I know you are cracked.
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No dear. It's SO CLEAR you have a "Precious Moments" mentality towards dhh kids, and just CANNOT BELIEVE that oral children do not magicly assimulate into the mainstream. We don't stay cute forever. Stuff like THAT happens as a result of NOT equipting kids with a variety of tools, and specialized experiences. Oral/mainstreamed kids' experiences are a LOT more complex then Flexor, Moog, Geers etc articles out there which simply say that dhh kids can function like HOH kids . I wish I was making stuff like this up. I was horrfied and grossed out, since seeing "professionals" is a VERY unhealthy way of dealing with that area. But what Flexor, Moog, Geers et al do not understand is that social emoitional delvelopment tends to be SEVERELY neglected in the auditory verbal/ inclusion based settings they idealize for dhh kids
 
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Hey Deafdyke, my deaf school Listening Eye School for the deaf closed too they said , they didnt have enough deaf people attening? Yeah right, meaning they wanted to get teh DHH into mainstream schools. They are never going to get it. NEVER!
 
deafdyke said:
No dear. It's SO CLEAR you have a "Precious Moments" mentality towards dhh kids, and just CANNOT BELIEVE that oral children do not magicly assimulate into the mainstream. We don't stay cute forever. Stuff like THAT happens as a result of NOT equipting kids with a variety of tools, and specialized experiences. Oral/mainstreamed kids' experiences are a LOT more complex then Flexor, Moog, Geers etc articles out there which simply say that dhh kids can function like HOH kids . I wish I was making stuff like this up. I was horrfied and grossed out, since seeing "professionals" is a VERY unhealthy way of dealing with that area. But what Flexor, Moog, Geers et al do not understand is that social emoitional delvelopment tends to be SEVERELY neglected in the auditory verbal/ inclusion based settings they idealize for dhh kids
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So what happened was that you met one gross d/Deaf guy who was such a weirdo that he couldn't deal with a real relationship and saw prostitutes. Ok, there are gross hearing people who do that too. What on earth does that have to do with listening and spoken language? As I have told you more than once, social skills are not ignored.
You are also obsessed with thinking that young children "are cute". I am not a professional educator because I think kids are cute. If you think that is what motivates teachers you are as disrespectful as you are uninformed.
 
what she meant was that they dont stay little forever/ hint cute? I see what she meant, meaning... ddh are going to be exposed to the hearing way of thinking/teaching to the deaf and hoh ... Ex: oral, hearing, cued speech, whatever is that "the professionals" do to us deaf and hoh human beings, that dhh will not be able to "be socially inclined to the mainstream in the "hearing world" if they dont follow their footprint (hearing world). In other words, "the professionals think the only way is for the dhh to be a part of ya'lls hearing world, if we talk, hear, and see ya'lls set of ways, and that is the only way to be "accepted."

AM I about right deafdyke? you can correct me if I am wrong on that part?? If I am wrong, then this is me speaking out loud here. hands moving asl as fast as I type :D Cya!
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
So what happened was that you met one gross d/Deaf guy who was such a weirdo that he couldn't deal with a real relationship and saw prostitutes. Ok, there are gross hearing people who do that too. What on earth does that have to do with listening and spoken language? As I have told you more than once, social skills are not ignored.
You are also obsessed with thinking that young children "are cute". I am not a professional educator because I think kids are cute. If you think that is what motivates teachers you are as disrespectful as you are uninformed.
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Um no sweetie. The problem is that an auditory verbal/auditory oral approach did NOT equipt dhh boys with the DEEP social skills to even START a deep relationship in the first place. Oralism claims that it can make things so good that deaf people won't "need" a seperate social network b/c they will have magiclly assimulated into the hearing world. BUT overall it has NOT. You know about that don't you? It's not an attack on you personally. It's VERY possible kids who were sent to an oral program/advanced oral school might do better socially. But most dhh kids aren't sent to formal oral programs. They do not get that safety net in an inclusion based sitution! I have no idea why I have to explain this to you. Thought you were such an experienced expert. But to put it mildly oralism DOES NOT allow sophiscated social emoitional development. Yes, I've only encountered two users of "professionals", and both were extremely sad and heartbreaking (one of them the MOTHER was getting him professionals not b/c he was "gross" but b/c he was so insanely lonely. The other one had NO friends and kept begging me for a girlfriend)....But I've ALSO encountered countless raised oral adults struggling with social issues and fitting in......I've ALSO encountered TONS of parents of dhh kids saying that their oral kid is doing OK academicly but has no friends...My friends who have been working in the system for 30 years say they see the EXACT SAME things....Heck Clarke School's mainstream conference is VERY heavily focused on SOCIAL ISSUES. There is a VERY severe social issues area of concern with dhh and other kids with special needs. And dear you seem to be stuck on thinking that dhh kids don't have social skill issues b/c to you your students are doing "fine" ..Perhaps you may not have the abilty to pick up on social issues except when they are severe and obvious. You talk like those"experts" who say that everything is fine. You also come across as thinking that just b/c the kids in your class appear to do well, that they'll be going down to Bill's for a malted before the big Bible Study competition in high school. THINGS CHANGE drasticly when the dhh and other special needs kids get older. B/c you're protesting and objecting so much, it makes me think you haven't personally experianed/witnessed the social emoitional switcharoo.
 
peekaboo said:
what she meant was that they dont stay little forever/ hint cute? I see what she meant, meaning... ddh are going to be exposed to the hearing way of thinking/teaching to the deaf and hoh ... Ex: oral, hearing, cued speech, whatever is that "the professionals" do to us deaf and hoh human beings, that dhh will not be able to "be socially inclined to the mainstream in the "hearing world" if they dont follow their footprint (hearing world). In other words, "the professionals think the only way is for the dhh to be a part of ya'lls hearing world, if we talk, hear, and see ya'lls set of ways, and that is the only way to be "accepted."

AM I about right deafdyke? you can correct me if I am wrong on that part?? If I am wrong, then this is me speaking out loud here. hands moving asl as fast as I type :D Cya!
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BINGO! The goal of deaf ed needs to be to equipt kids with EVERYTHING without bias and towards the BIG PICTURE!
 
peekaboo said:
Hey Deafdyke, my deaf school Listening Eye School for the deaf closed too they said , they didnt have enough deaf people attening? Yeah right, meaning they wanted to get teh DHH into mainstream schools. They are never going to get it. NEVER!
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Was it an actual school? There was a HUGE shutdown of schools for the Deaf in the '70's, b/c of the mainstreaming law. I see it was in GA. Know what happens in GA? HOH kids are put in special ed and given certificates of attendance....the system is a MESS assuming the mainstream is ALWAYS better
 
deafdyke said:
Was it an actual school? There was a HUGE shutdown of schools for the Deaf in the '70's, b/c of the mainstreaming law. I see it was in GA. Know what happens in GA? HOH kids are put in special ed and given certificates of attendance....the system is a MESS assuming the mainstream is ALWAYS better
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EXACTLY!!!!!!! AND YES IT WAS CLOSED DOWN BECAUSE OF THAT! AND YES IT WAS IN GA. I WAS SENT TO SPECIAL ED CLASSES ALL THE WAY THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL. AND YOU KNOW WHAT.... I LEARNED NOTHING!
 
deafdyke said:
Um no sweetie. The problem is that an auditory verbal/auditory oral approach did NOT equipt dhh boys with the DEEP social skills to even START a deep relationship in the first place. Oralism claims that it can make things so good that deaf people won't "need" a seperate social network b/c they will have magiclly assimulated into the hearing world. BUT overall it has NOT. You know about that don't you? It's not an attack on you personally. It's VERY possible kids who were sent to an oral program/advanced oral school might do better socially. But most dhh kids aren't sent to formal oral programs. They do not get that safety net in an inclusion based sitution! I have no idea why I have to explain this to you. Thought you were such an experienced expert. But to put it mildly oralism DOES NOT allow sophiscated social emoitional development. Yes, I've only encountered two users of "professionals", and both were extremely sad and heartbreaking (one of them the MOTHER was getting him professionals not b/c he was "gross" but b/c he was so insanely lonely. The other one had NO friends and kept begging me for a girlfriend)....But I've ALSO encountered countless raised oral adults struggling with social issues and fitting in......I've ALSO encountered TONS of parents of dhh kids saying that their oral kid is doing OK academicly but has no friends...My friends who have been working in the system for 30 years say they see the EXACT SAME things....Heck Clarke School's mainstream conference is VERY heavily focused on SOCIAL ISSUES. There is a VERY severe social issues area of concern with dhh and other kids with special needs. And dear you seem to be stuck on thinking that dhh kids don't have social skill issues b/c to you your students are doing "fine" ..Perhaps you may not have the abilty to pick up on social issues except when they are severe and obvious. You talk like those"experts" who say that everything is fine. You also come across as thinking that just b/c the kids in your class appear to do well, that they'll be going down to Bill's for a malted before the big Bible Study competition in high school. THINGS CHANGE drasticly when the dhh and other special needs kids get older. B/c you're protesting and objecting so much, it makes me think you haven't personally experianed/witnessed the social emoitional switcharoo.
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And I know tons of deaf adults who are happy and doing very well in life. They are well educated, have careers and happy families. Why is it that you can't accept that people are different?
I have not only worked in preschool. As I have stated time and again, I have experience with older students, including all the way through graduating high school. I know very well what it looks like for students to be in the mainstream and what real life looks like for them. Your condescending references to earlier generations simply makes you look foolish. I have worked for years with children in various settings with varying needs. You cannot decide what does or does not work for all children.
People are individuals with individual needs. Just as you have horror stories about two oral deaf individuals, I have horror stories of children being raped at Deaf schools and not being able to report it because they can't communicate with anyone outside the school. Children being so completely isolated because they can't communicate with their family or neighbors or community that they turn suicidal. Do I blame ASL for that? Of course not. Those are horrible situations that happened for a variety of reasons and the children were failed by the community at large. Does that mean that children shouldn't attend Deaf schools? Of course not. (And what will happen now is that you will blame those events of those evil hearing parents for not learning to sign, right?)
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
So what happened was that you met one gross d/Deaf guy who was such a weirdo that he couldn't deal with a real relationship and saw prostitutes. Ok, there are gross hearing people who do that too. What on earth does that have to do with listening and spoken language? As I have told you more than once, social skills are not ignored.
You are also obsessed with thinking that young children "are cute". I am not a professional educator because I think kids are cute. If you think that is what motivates teachers you are as disrespectful as you are uninformed.
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You have quite the cajones calling anyone here disrespectful after some of the things you've said (and we've quoted... and yet you've still denied...) I believe it's the pot calling the kettle black. But you'll just deny it because of course as a hearing person you have superior language skills and there's no way us silly DHH people can even manage a literal interpretation of your pretty direct statements.
 
zeefour said:
You have quite the cajones calling anyone here disrespectful after some of the things you've said (and we've quoted... and yet you've still denied...) I believe it's the pot calling the kettle black. But you'll just deny it because of course as a hearing person you have superior language skills and there's no way us silly DHH people can even manage a literal interpretation of your pretty direct statements.
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You continue to claim that I have denied things I have said. Show me a SINGLE thing that you quoted and I denied or changed. You can't. You have chosen to read into my words things I have NOT said and then, of course, I say you are wrong. If you show me a single thing that I denied after you quoted me, I will remove myself from this site and never return. It can't be things you *claim* I said, but what I have written in black and white.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
And I know tons of deaf adults who are happy and doing very well in life. They are well educated, have careers and happy families. Why is it that you can't accept that people are different?
I have not only worked in preschool. As I have stated time and again, I have experience with older students, including all the way through graduating high school. I know very well what it looks like for students to be in the mainstream and what real life looks like for them. Your condescending references to earlier generations simply makes you look foolish. I have worked for years with children in various settings with varying needs. You cannot decide what does or does not work for all children.
People are individuals with individual needs. Just as you have horror stories about two oral deaf individuals, I have horror stories of children being raped at Deaf schools and not being able to report it because they can't communicate with anyone outside the school. Children being so completely isolated because they can't communicate with their family or neighbors or community that they turn suicidal. Do I blame ASL for that? Of course not. Those are horrible situations that happened for a variety of reasons and the children were failed by the community at large. Does that mean that children shouldn't attend Deaf schools? Of course not. (And what will happen now is that you will blame those events of those evil hearing parents for not learning to sign, right?)
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Darling, I do accept that people are different but it sounds like you're projecting and turning a stint as a teacher's aide into years and years of experience in different settings. For example hearing from an alum of your program, is now "oh I taught many students in high school!" You do realize even if your claims are true that the students you've taught represent a VERY small number of the total dhh students out there. I can guarentee that they both aren't doing as well as you claim and they most likely had advantages that your average dhh kid doesn't. Again how do you know that you're not mistaking doing OK for "Oral dhh kids are doing AWESOME in ALL areas and don't even THINK about implying that they're not b/c it's a personal attack on ME!" I've met oral deaf TODs who gush about how WELL their kid is doing. Meanwhile, the kid isn't doing that well....but b/c the kid can function as HOH and isn't on the "Keep Be Positive/Shine of Positive level of literacy, somehow they're succeeding in the hearing world, since the oral TOD has a "healthy normal "oh look at the sweet wittle deaf kids in NORMAL schools" mentality. The oral TOD doesn't seem to understand that with the addition of cued speech, ASL, Deaf Schools, etc the kid could do EVEN BETTER and not have to work so hard. especially socially........I also have a feeling those stories about sexual abuse at Deaf Schools were most likely from 40 years ago, when safety measures weren't as good. AG Bell is FAMOUS for that..I remember a thread where the AG Bell mamas were FLIPPING out, convinced a child would be raped the SECOND they stepped into the school. Most of the time nowadays and up to 40 years ago, (before insisutional reform, which lead to INTENSE reform so that abuse, whether sexual or physical wouldn't happen) the sexual abuse is NOT insistutional. It's normally about a child with severe issues who should have been in an intense theraputic setting acting out. There are occasional staff issues, but that happens in the mainstream too! It's NOT a deaf school exclusive thing. It's very rarely a schoolwide thing and it's ALSO DEALT with. Most kids at schools for the Deaf have friends on staff they can communicate with. That is how stories come out.
 
peekaboo said:
EXACTLY!!!!!!! AND YES IT WAS CLOSED DOWN BECAUSE OF THAT! AND YES IT WAS IN GA. I WAS SENT TO SPECIAL ED CLASSES ALL THE WAY THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL. AND YOU KNOW WHAT.... I LEARNED NOTHING!
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Yup. Certificate of attendance kid right? You sound better off then the two dhh kids from GA, who I know who graduated in the '00's. They were ALSO placed in sped. One of them still has issues with the difference between boycotted and boycotting, cannot pass a written test to become a massage therapist, and has a lot of social issues. She will never be competively employed. The other guy was CONVINCED he could "walk in and apply cold" for a paraprofessional job. Kept telling him he needed more specialized job training to stand out or get a job. Have a feeling he's going to be looking for a job for a VERY long time
 
zeefour said:
You have quite the cajones calling anyone here disrespectful after some of the things you've said (and we've quoted... and yet you've still denied...) I believe it's the pot calling the kettle black. But you'll just deny it because of course as a hearing person you have superior language skills and there's no way us silly DHH people can even manage a literal interpretation of your pretty direct statements.
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Oh yes, don't you know? Bringing up issues she wasn't taught about is PERSONALLY attacking her! Speech only is PERFECT and normal, and has NO downsides!
 
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