Learn ASL or SEE

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aprilrain

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My daughter has a limited ability to be able to speak. She is now almost 7. Everyone said NOT to teach sign language, but now they have decided it is best if she learns sign language in order to be able to communicate.
My question is, which do you all prefer? She has no hearing problems. I don't know which she would benefit from more. I would like her to learn what most deaf children learn because she will be going to a group with other deaf children in order to meet others who communicate using sign. I would really appreciate your information. This is all very new to us.
Thanks,
April
 
Hi April! Does you daughter have apraxia or mental retardation? There seems to be a trend lately of teaching special needs kids with normal hearing Sign. I think TLC actually even has a program open to kids with normal hearing, but who have things like apraxia, tracheostomys, etc.
Me I would suggest teaching ASL, as ASL seems to be the common language in the deaf community.
 
Hi April, welcome to AllDeaf!! I'm HoH and I come from an all Deaf family, however I was mainstreamed to a hearing school myself. Our family uses Bi-Bi, ASL and oralism, this is considered as Total Communication. We use TC with our niece and nephews because we all are proficient lip-readers. We have learned that even when my hearing nephew uses TC, he picks up ASL just as fast as his HoH sister and brother does. I have attached an URL for you to check out about Total Communication.

http://www.deaflinx.com/options_tc.html

Some people will say Total Communication is not good for both signing and talking skills as it will have a negative impact on both learning skills but it has been quite the opposite for this family. Our english comprehension skills are good, we talk/lip-read proficiently and we sign ASL.
 
As a matter of fact, my daughter does have severe apraxia. She was finally diagnosed at the age of 5. Only after I researched every speech disorder on the internet and prepared myself to ask the doctors as many questions as possible. Naturally, she started doing "signs" on her own to make clear what she wanted. The doctors told us not to allow her to do that. After researching again, I thought I would give signing a try. After about 2 months of learning and practicing a few signs, the signs she has learned, she has also learned the words as well. We sign to her (the few things we know) but we always speak while doing so. It seems to have worked, in a sense, as her own type of cued speech. It lets her communciate what she needs to, but at the same time reminds her how to speak a word. She was having a lot of difficulty with learning her phonics as well. After I saw how quickly she picked up the alphabet in sign, for phonics we just incorporated that. The signed letters "dance" for her, indicating the sound of the letter, not name. It seems to be doing much better than speech therapy alone. After two years of therapy, I have seen really no improvement. Not to mention, our insurance does not cover it for her. I purchased the Kaufman Apraxia kit, and decided to combine that with learning the signs. She has gone in the last few months from a vocabulary of about 10 words to about 40-50 words, which is a great improvement for her. So, now regardless of what the opinions of doctors here are, I do feel that sign has really started to open up a new world for her. I want her to learn the appropriate sign though whether it be ASL or any other. I don't know much of the others, and I will be sure to look into them now. I know she isn't deaf or HOH but she is constantly picked on by other children her age. So, I would really like her to get involved with other children who have special needs so that she feels she isn't alone and there is nothing wrong with her. I'm not happy that my daughter can't speak, but at the same time, it has opened us up to a whole new world in a sense. Guess you take the good with the bad? Thanks again for your help. I am new, but think I will really enjoy this board!
April
 
Interesting story about your daughter.

Your goal is to establish communication. I wonder why the doctors say that your daughter should not learn sign language?

If you want to go to sign language...you have to understand the difference between several sign language. ASL is commonly used in the deaf culture because of how easy it is to express what you have to say. SEE is used to express in exact english grammars. Since it sounds like your daughter can hear just fine...SEE would be the best to go since it's primarily learning just one language, the english language along with hand shapes. ASL would make it all complicated for your daughter to use.

You should think about the future such as what would happen when your daughter is 20 yrs old. Someone verbally asks a question to your daughter. The daughter answers back. What mode of communications should it be?
 
Since it sounds like your daughter can hear just fine...SEE would be the best to go since
it's primarily learning just one language, the english language along with hand shapes. ASL
would make it all complicated for your daughter to use.
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Yes, but she's going to be socializing with Deaf kids. The common language for Deafies is ASL. SEE is much less commonly used in Signing communities. Let me put it to you in an anlogy. Say for example, you were French and were going to emigigrate to Quebec. You wouldn't just learn quebecious (which is a different dialect of French BTW) would you? (only a small minority of Canadians speak French...it's better to learn English! Am I making any sense? I am VERY tired and need to get to bed!
BTW, you may want to look into maybe sending your child to a Deaf-school, or a Deaf summer camp/summer program so she can get proper exposure to ASL! Oh, and are you in a VERY pro-oral area? (like St. Louis) If so that doesn't surprise me one iota..... so many experts still push the myth that if a child is ever taught sign, they'll be twapped in the deaf-world. That is a VERY VERY old and inaccuartate myth, based on the fact that in the old days, most deafies were just thrown to the deaf-world without any thing like speech therapy. As long as speech therapy is continiued along with exposure to ASL, then speech skills should do just fine!
 
I have heard that with hearing children, it is best to use ASL because they do have the ability to hear english being spoken.
I have already found a deaf day camp about 40 mins from here (Cincinnati) and plan to enroll her next year. I want her to have exposure to all types of children, but where she can also feel comfortable as well. Well, as far as the doctors are concerned
1)For years her not speaking was due to her older daughter talking for her. We were supposed to force her to speak for herself. When this did not work, we were at fault.
2) After the diagnosis of apraxia, it was oral, oral, oral. Don't allow her to "replace" speech.
I don't feel that it's had that affect on her. I have talked to other parents with children with apraxia, and they have had good success with sign promoting speech. Which is where I have to agree. I feel like I am leaning more toward ASL. I appreciate your input and it's been a great help!
 
Originally posted by deafdyke
Yes, but she's going to be socializing with Deaf kids. The common language for Deafies is ASL. SEE is much less commonly used in Signing communities. Let me put it to you in an anlogy. Say for example, you were French and were going to emigigrate to Quebec. You wouldn't just learn quebecious (which is a different dialect of French BTW) would you? (only a small minority of Canadians speak French...it's better to learn English! Am I making any sense? I am VERY tired and need to get to bed!
BTW, you may want to look into maybe sending your child to a Deaf-school, or a Deaf summer camp/summer program so she can get proper exposure to ASL! Oh, and are you in a VERY pro-oral area? (like St. Louis) If so that doesn't surprise me one iota..... so many experts still push the myth that if a child is ever taught sign, they'll be twapped in the deaf-world. That is a VERY VERY old and inaccuartate myth, based on the fact that in the old days, most deafies were just thrown to the deaf-world without any thing like speech therapy. As long as speech therapy is continiued along with exposure to ASL, then speech skills should do just fine!
Click to expand...

Well, you failed to notice...

She has no hearing problems.
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Deaf school might not be a good idea. :p
 
Translate a sentence into ASL from english...for example..

ASL: Red nice car me have.

SEE: I have a nice red car.

In 20 yrs later....you could ask in spoken, "How was your day?"

Do you want to hear ASL or SEE?
 
Originally posted by Freaky
Hi April, welcome to AllDeaf!! I'm HoH and I come from an all Deaf family, however I was mainstreamed to a hearing school myself. Our family uses Bi-Bi, ASL and oralism, this is considered as Total Communication. We use TC with our niece and nephews because we all are proficient lip-readers. We have learned that even when my hearing nephew uses TC, he picks up ASL just as fast as his HoH sister and brother does. I have attached an URL for you to check out about Total Communication.

http://www.deaflinx.com/options_tc.html

Some people will say Total Communication is not good for both signing and talking skills as it will have a negative impact on both learning skills but it has been quite the opposite for this family. Our english comprehension skills are good, we talk/lip-read proficiently and we sign ASL.
Click to expand...

I used Total Communication all my life -- and learnt SEE, ASL in the process as well. It hasn't impacted me in my learning skills at all. I believe total communication and learning SEE before using ASL would ensure good english skills, that's just in my opinion. :)

Goldie
 
Originally posted by SilenceGold
Translate a sentence into ASL from english...for example..

ASL: Red nice car me have.

SEE: I have a nice red car.

In 20 yrs later....you could ask in spoken, "How was your day?"

Do you want to hear ASL or SEE?
Click to expand...

This mean what? You think kid grow up learn learn ASL grammar
Suppose kid hear can, then she grow up get used know right English.
us her same idea, us asl sign can, us english write can, problem where? her same happen can.

(Translation from my ASL:
What does this mean? Do you think the kid will grow up learning ASL grammar? If the kid could hear, then she would grow up getting used to proper English. It is same idea for her and us, we can sign ASL and we can write English, so where is the problem? It can happen to her too.)
 
Originally posted by kuifje75
This mean what? You think kid grow up learn learn ASL grammar
Suppose kid hear can, then she grow up get used know right English.
us her same idea, us asl sign can, us english write can, problem where? her same happen can.

(Translation from my ASL:
What does this mean? Do you think the kid will grow up learning ASL grammar? If the kid could hear, then she would grow up getting used to proper English. It is same idea for her and us, we can sign ASL and we can write English, so where is the problem? It can happen to her too.)
Click to expand...

Perfect, kuifje75! Right to the point! :) I was going to do a similar posting to yours, but you beat me to it. ;P

Goldie
 
Originally posted by SilenceGold
Translate a sentence into ASL from english...for example..

ASL: Red nice car me have.

SEE: I have a nice red car.

In 20 yrs later....you could ask in spoken, "How was your day?"

Do you want to hear ASL or SEE?
Click to expand...

From the newsroom of The Western Mail, Cardiff, Wales, United Kingdom,
Friday, July 11, 2003 .....

Deaf girl marked down over language

Jenny Rees, The Western Mail

JODIE PRICE is in the top sets for everything at school, yet there is a
chance that she could leave barely scraping through her GCSEs - simply
because she is deaf.

The current exam system has let her and many other deaf children down
because of the way she communicates with people.

Jodie's first language is British Sign Language (BSL), which means that
English is like a foreign language to her.

Though the 16-year-old is extremely competent in all her subjects using BSL,
her English vocabulary is far more limited and exams throughout her school
life have been a real struggle for an otherwise very able teenager.

She has just sat her GCSEs but says that the WJEC has let her down by not
allowing her to complete her exams in her first language.

Her main problem is that she has been unable to sign her responses and must
instead write her answers in English, which is still unfamiliar to her.

In one English-language paper it took her an hour to translate the
comprehension section into BSL before she could even start to look at the
questions and translate them as well.

For one paper she memorised an entire essay simply because she knew her
English would let her down.

She is calling for the exam board to give BSL-users equality, so that
answers can be signed or modifications made to the question papers so that
they are easily understood.

Though most deaf children are now given a cochlear implant, there is still a
large number of people whose first language is BSL.

Using BSL, Jodie said, "I don't have good enough English to write good
sentences. I would like to be allowed to sign, signing is much better." The
teenager has sat seven GCSEs and awaits the results on August 21.

Susan Williams works at Ynysawdre Comprehensive in Bridgend, and accompanies
Jodie to every class, signing the lessons to her.

She explained that in exams like English, it is Jodie's memory of how to
spell words that is being tested more than her actual knowledge of any book
or poem.

"Jodie has the knowledge but expressing it in English is very difficult,"
said Mrs Williams.

"My feeling is that Jodie is an A-grade student who might get Cs or Ds in
some subjects.

"I know she is clever, but how do you prove that?

For Jodie's mum, Jennifer, seeing her daughter pushing herself so hard can
be very upsetting.

"She knows words and meanings but it breaks my heart watching her trying to
learn the spelling. Jodie is very ambitious and doesn't like coming second
in anything, so I think English is damaging her confidence. It's awful to
see her getting upset."

This week Brian Rogers, assistant director of communications at the WJEC,
met with Jodie, her mother and members of staff at Ynysawdre to listen to
their problem.

"I wasn't aware of the problems until Susan raised them with me," he said.

"The system bars Jodie from responding in BSL. Is the system under question?
I would say yes, it probably is, and we will be looking very closely at
Jodie's results."

But Mr Rogers explained that one difficulty the exam board faces is finding
experts in each area to give their input into exam papers before they are
issued.

Copyright 2003 The Western Mail

This is just an example of my opinion on which I believe the deaf community should learn Signed English which closely resemble English in the proper grammar, so they can learn to write proper English.
It's just in my opinion, remember? I have no objections to anyone who prefers to use ASL as first language, that's OK! I prefer ASL, too, yes! But it's just the order of learning sign language, that's all.

Goldie
 
Originally posted by kuifje75
This mean what? You think kid grow up learn learn ASL grammar
Suppose kid hear can, then she grow up get used know right English.
us her same idea, us asl sign can, us english write can, problem where? her same happen can.

(Translation from my ASL:
What does this mean? Do you think the kid will grow up learning ASL grammar? If the kid could hear, then she would grow up getting used to proper English. It is same idea for her and us, we can sign ASL and we can write English, so where is the problem? It can happen to her too.)
Click to expand...

This issue is not about her reading/writing skills. You do have a point if we were going to argue about a hearing child using sign language as a primary tool regarding the reading/writing skills.

Let's say the child is raised with ASL language for her own communication toward whoever he/she is talking to. He/she also learns english by using his/her ears to pick them up. Maybe there are also schools to help her with those english skills. The question is....is there a way to make those efforts less for the sakes of communications?

The reason I picked SEE is because like if you have read what aprilrain has commented about her daughter:

For years her not speaking was due to her older daughter talking for her. We were supposed to force her to speak for herself. When this did not work, we were at fault.
Click to expand...

I was thinking, if you taught her SEE which includes signs for like am, be, are, is, was, and were...etc. Perhaps she'll start using verbal communications included with her signs. If she did ASL, do you think it's possible and EASIER for her to use her verbal communcations along with the ASL signs?

Maybe you have a different perspective that would tell me something new. Care to share?
 
My statement also applies to signing. There is no reason for her to have to sign fully in English, if people are going to know what she means anyway. The only people who will understand sign language are people who knows it already, not the hearing people. So, why should she learn SEE for? Just for the sake of having her signing in proper English? But to whom? Family wouldn't care, because the most important thing is that communication occurs effectively. And then with hearing people who doesn't know signs, she can always either write or sign through her family or an interpreter to them. If she is ABLE to hear and comprehend English very well, and able to write English right, then there is no point for her to have to sign in SEE.
 
Originally posted by kuifje75
My statement also applies to signing. There is no reason for her to have to sign fully in English, if people are going to know what she means anyway. The only people who will understand sign language are people who knows it already, not the hearing people. So, why should she learn SEE for? Just for the sake of having her signing in proper English? But to whom? Family wouldn't care, because the most important thing is that communication occurs effectively. And then with hearing people who doesn't know signs, she can always either write or sign through her family or an interpreter to them. If she is ABLE to hear and comprehend English very well, and able to write English right, then there is no point for her to have to sign in SEE.
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See.....I think if she signs fully in English...toward those people who don't know signs...she might start using her voice slightly to get the point across...(in secret that is forcing her to talk).

For example, if I was to say, "I want this cherry pie."

I would sign out, "I want (pointing at the pies) cherry pie (if the other person acts like he/she don't understand, verbally say "cherry").

It happens to me often around the family members. Of course, high percentage of those family members ignore me because of my signs. If I use my verbal communications (oral skills), they would give me a chance. :(

Remember, my goal is to get her speaking again. aprilrain, you're welcome to comment if you think that I'm sidetracking from what you want. Please do so. :D

That is why I think that when the daughter realizes that the family doesn't care about signs...she might start "caring" about her own verbal communications and start using it?
 
Deaf school might not be a good idea.
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Why not? I have a friend whose HOH daughter attends Kansas School for the Deaf (day student) and Katie tells me that quite a few of Remy's classmates have normal hearing and aren't CODAs, but instead have things like tracheostomys, and apraxia. Even TLC (Learning Center for Deaf Kids) has a Hearing- Signing academic program for kids who can hear but not speak.
Besides she doesn't have to attend deaf-school full time. She can attend part time to get the benifits of a deaf school.
Cincinnati)
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You may want to check out the programs at St. Rita's if you're in Cinninati. From all accounts I have heard it's a wonderful deaf-school. I'll check online for other resources for you if you want.
See.....I think if she signs fully in English...toward those people who don't know signs...she might start using her voice slightly to get the point across.
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That's a BIG maybe. Do you know ANYTHING about the treatment of apraxia? It's not just something like "selective mutisim"...choosing NOT to speak.
People with apraxia have nereological difficulties which mean they have difficulty with the motor cordination required to make speech sounds. She'll also have speech and language therapy designed especially for kids with apraxia, so her English development won't suffer or anything.
 
Originally posted by deafdyke
Why not? I have a friend whose HOH daughter attends Kansas School for the Deaf (day student) and Katie tells me that quite a few of Remy's classmates have normal hearing and aren't CODAs, but instead have things like tracheostomys, and apraxia. Even TLC (Learning Center for Deaf Kids) has a Hearing- Signing academic program for kids who can hear but not speak.

Besides she doesn't have to attend deaf-school full time. She can attend part time to get the benifits of a deaf school. You may want to check out the programs at St. Rita's if you're in Cinninati. From all accounts I have heard it's a wonderful deaf-school. I'll check online for other resources for you if you want.
Click to expand...


According to the arkansas school for the deaf policy....you had to be qualified to have a hearing loss to be able to attend there. That is what has caused me to believe that all the other state deaf schools might have in common. I don't know from aprilrains if her daughter has any type of hearing loss. Just mentioned that she was hearing.

Part time attendence might be fine if it comes to just learning the sign language. It's a waste for a student who can hear just fine to sit during a class with other deaf students...other than being with the hearing students where he/she can hear just fine. Only issue is talking/speaking out for him/herself. That can be where the sign language comes in.

That's a BIG maybe. Do you know ANYTHING about the treatment of apraxia? It's not just something like "selective mutisim"...choosing NOT to speak.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of the effects of apraxia. I saw aprilrains admit that it might be at her fault. What's a way to reverse it? Encouraging her daughter to speak was what I "thought." SEE would just make it much easier on the daughter when it comes to "thinking speaking" and signing at the same time...

Remember, coma patients also usually have apraxia effects too. :D
 
I am use PSE.

Originaly, I grew in SEE and start learn ASL at nearly end of my high school.
 
According to the arkansas school for the deaf policy....you had to be qualified to have a
hearing loss to be able to attend there. That is what has caused me to believe that all the other state deaf schools might have in common.
Click to expand...
The policy may have changed. I know for NY State Deaf schools, they require you to have a profound loss, but some other state schools are slowly realizing that hearing loss has nothing to do with whether or not someone is culturally Deaf. Even Gally now admits hearing students (as undergrads)!
I know a handful of kids with apraxia or who are OHI (otherwise health impaired) and they are in Deaf programs. Some even go to Deaf schools!
What's a way to reverse it? Encouraging her daughter to speak was what I "thought." SEE would just make it much easier on the daughter when it comes to"thinking speaking" and signing at the same time...Remember, coma patients also usually have apraxia effects too.
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Well, yes it might make TC easier but on the other hand more Deaf people sign ASL then do SEE. Only a VERY small number of Deafies use SEE as their preferred language! See what I am saying?
 
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