Equal Access: HDMI is Inaccessible

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Banjo

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Hello everybody, I'm glad to be back here after a lengthy vacation. I finally decided on a subject to cover. I feel that it is quite a serious situation. Please watch the vlog to learn why it concerns the deaf community in a big way. The vlog is captioned.
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To view the vlog, please click here.
 
This is a very serious problem, especially with the new change over. I do not see them fixing this anytime soon though. They would have to recall every single unit that exist to possibly fix this.
 
Banjo, as an owner of HDTV along with HDMI, some of the caption does work, sometimes not. I hope FCC will make it requirement for ALL HDMI cable to provide captioning. There's no excuse for them to delay any longer.

Thanks for the video and pointing things out, kudos to you :thumb:
 
Calvin said:
Banjo, as an owner of HDTV along with HDMI, some of the caption does work, sometimes not. I hope FCC will make it requirement for ALL HDMI cable to provide captioning. There's no excuse for them to delay any longer.

Thanks for the video and pointing things out, kudos to you :thumb:
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It's not possible for the HDMI cable to carry the CC signal at all. All HDMI cables are to be made according to the standard specs established by the HDMI group. CC is still not a part of the spec.

It's more than likely that it is your TV receiver or DVD player that is rendering the CC and not the TV if it's going through HDMI cables.
 
Banjo said:
It's not possible for the HDMI cable to carry the CC signal at all. All HDMI cables are to be made according to the standard specs established by the HDMI group. CC is still not a part of the spec.

It's more than likely that it is your TV receiver or DVD player that is rendering the CC and not the TV if it's going through HDMI cables.
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Yes, that could be possible, but in the Comcast's cable box (with HDMI) I was able to get a cable box menu which look like this:

84052445_c43a99107a_m.jpg


Some of the channels does not show caption, so I don't actually know how this works? :dunno: but you could be right.

When I watch DVD or Blu-ray movies, I use my PS3 to watch them, and normally use subtiles or SDH. I also use HDMI cable from my PS3 to my HDTV.
 
Banjo, I reviewed your vlog and the comments posted at your site.

You mentioned that the cause is the cable itself, that it can't carry the signals.

That does mean that the software programming can be readily available on the output system, if so, then it would just probably take a simple version patch or flash to update it to include CC for the hardware side, and that's pretty easy because once it is set in stone, it'll go from there.

But I'm completely clueless as to how the cables are incapable of transferring the data.

If I recall correctly, the wiring of the HDMI itself is similar to network CAT5 cables, with the same cabling concept of those wires, for R/G/B.

What's the analog/SV/component cables got that HDMI doesn't for the signal?
Getting into techy geek mode here if you know the saying. I'd be glad to hear your input for sharing.

Thanks in advance.
 
naisho said:
Banjo, I reviewed your vlog and the comments posted at your site.

You mentioned that the cause is the cable itself, that it can't carry the signals.

That does mean that the software programming can be readily available on the output system, if so, then it would just probably take a simple version patch or flash to update it to include CC for the hardware side, and that's pretty easy because once it is set in stone, it'll go from there.

But I'm completely clueless as to how the cables are incapable of transferring the data.

If I recall correctly, the wiring of the HDMI itself is similar to network CAT5 cables, with the same cabling concept of those wires, for R/G/B.

What's the analog/SV/component cables got that HDMI doesn't for the signal?
Getting into techy geek mode here if you know the saying. I'd be glad to hear your input for sharing.

Thanks in advance.
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HDMI is digital, both component and composite cables are analog. There are several versions of HDMI cables out there. Right now, the latest version available on the market is 1.3b, but they are about to put out a new HDMI spec which was recently approved and no, it still doesn't include CC. I've spoken to engineers who know their stuff on video and audio cables. I had to double check what they told me and it turned out to be true.

It's not that easy to explain, but it would require a new spec to be approved for the HDMI cable to start accepting CC signals. HDMI cables are designed to accept specific data and will strip of several types of data if they do not comply with the HDMI specs. Then after that, you probably would have to buy a new Blu-ray player or TV receiver that supports the new HDMI spec unless they are able to somehow become backward compatible with the older models with HDMI input/output by doing a firmware update. But I can't really say much on that part because I'm not sure if that's even possible.
 
Thanks for the update Banjo.

I did some researching in the meantime since viewing your blog.

I stumbled upon a thread at one of the other forums I used to frequently populate: avsforum.com.

It's supposed to stand for Audio Video science forum I believe, really good forum resource for anything related to TV's. Not sure about audio.

Found the exact thread that may mention what's going on:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=699933

It's posted by a deaf/HH guy as well.

In this thread, it'll mention some models and brands of DVD players that can do the CC processing for you, but like you stated, the feed is "burned in" which is no good. They'll also mention about speaking to mfg reps and just getting the same old "I'm sorry for your inconvenience" thing.

But, from what I observe much of the inputs provided there come from inputs of video novices and beyond.
 
To receive hdtv you need satalite or cable, as of right now. It's the boxes that come with those services that do the closed captioning decoding.
 
Calvin said:
Yes, that could be possible, but in the Comcast's cable box (with HDMI) I was able to get a cable box menu which look like this:

84052445_c43a99107a_m.jpg


Some of the channels does not show caption, so I don't actually know how this works? :dunno: but you could be right.

When I watch DVD or Blu-ray movies, I use my PS3 to watch them, and normally use subtiles or SDH. I also use HDMI cable from my PS3 to my HDTV.
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I will post this once again.

To receive hdtv you need satalite or cable, as of right now. It's the boxes that come with those services that do the closed captioning decoding.
Click to expand...
 
jasin said:
Maybe you can comment on the line21 Bango :)
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What about it? That's applied to standard TV sets (480i). Every 21st line, the data from the CC signal will be inserted.

Once they started bringing out TVs capable of 480p and more, that started to be a problem.
 
Banjo said:
What about it? That's applied to standard TV sets (480i). Every 21st line, the data from the CC signal will be inserted.

Once they started bringing out TVs capable of 480p and more, that started to be a problem.
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Closed Captioning, by US law, are provided within line 21 of an analog TV signal and is geared toward the hearing impaired. Unlike subtitles which are usually focused on dialogs only, Closed Captioning are intended to transcribe the audio effects, along with musical vocals (this aspect is due to licensing issues).

Unfortunately, HDMI connections does not currently have any way to transmit closed captioning as the standards called for it. There are apparently two separate standards, the Line 21 standard, and the more modern MPEG standards. The vast majority of televisions available today does not support the second standard over HDMI connection. Also, the vast majority of contents are using the older Line 21 standard, which can not be sent over HDMI connections.
 
Banjo said:
What about it? That's applied to standard TV sets (480i). Every 21st line, the data from the CC signal will be inserted.

Once they started bringing out TVs capable of 480p and more, that started to be a problem.
Click to expand...

Most 480i TVs are still NTSC analog TV resolution. Which is why you did not have this problem with most 480i sets.
 
jasin said:
Closed Captioning, by US law, are provided within line 21 of an analog TV signal and is geared toward the hearing impaired. Unlike subtitles which are usually focused on dialogs only, Closed Captioning are intended to transcribe the audio effects, along with musical vocals (this aspect is due to licensing issues).
Click to expand...

I am not sure if line 21 is part of the law. I believe any broadcast programs whether they are from antenna, cable or satellite, CC must be accessible regardless of line 21.

Today's TVs with ATSC (HDTV) tuners have built-in digital CC decoder. It only works with Over the Air (OTA) antenna, not cable or satellite. That law is not broken.

To watch HDTV with CC via HDMI using cable or satellite, CC must come from cable or satellite boxes, not TVs with built-in CC decoder. If cable or satellite boxes do not provide CC over HDMI, then in my opinion cable or satelltie companies probably broke the law because of new HDMI protocol, not TV manufacturers.

CC from Blu-ray or DVD disk is a whole different ball game and do not have to comply with FCC regarding to CC. I am hoping Blu-ray/DVD manufacturers will have the courtesy to include the ability to read CC from disks, overlay CC on video and transmit CC/video through HDMI. For that to work, movie studios will have to include CC as well on every disks.

Peter
 
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