And he was cued...

netrox

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I just wish that people should take cued speech much more seriously than SEE/PSE/LOVE.

None of the MCE's are linguistically sound - only Cued English is truly a complete language capable of conveying all the phonemes of languages visually.

People have been wasting so much time trying to teach deaf kids English with modified signs when all they needed to do is to *cue* to them like they would *speak* to the hearing!

Cueing is a visual counterpart of speaking. Cueing and speaking are separate processes and independent of each other BUT they co-exist perfectly. Cueing does not depend on speech and speaking does not depend on cuem (cues plus mouthshapes).

Studies have consistently find that deaf kids who are exposed to cued languages acquire them the same way as the hearing who are exposed to spoken languages.

Just think... if you can't hear, you need to see phonemes that are visual. Each cue represents a phoneme just like each speech sound represents a phoneme.

If teachers use cued English in deaf schools, I can tell you that their English language will FINALLY get on the par with the hearing but deaf politics, past bitterness, and ignorance are preventing deaf kids from having equal access to English. Remember, speech is NOT required. Deaf cuers can have terrible speech yet can cue perfect English!

By the way, I am a deaf cuer. Have been cueing since I was 8 years old. :)
 
I just wish that people should take cued speech much more seriously than SEE/PSE/LOVE.

None of the MCE's are linguistically sound - only Cued English is truly a complete language capable of conveying all the phonemes of languages visually.

CS is not a language. It is an MCE.

People have been wasting so much time trying to teach deaf kids English with modified signs when all they needed to do is to *cue* to them like they would *speak* to the hearing!

CS is not new. It is a system that was developed, and has proven to be generally ineffective in language acquisition. It is useful only if one already knows English, and is an asssistive tool to vacilitate speechreading. Identifying morphemes is not helpful if one does not knowthe differnce inthe concept represented.
Cueing is a visual counterpart of speaking. Cueing and speaking are separate processes and independent of each other BUT they co-exist perfectly. Cueing does not depend on speech and speaking does not depend on cuem (cues plus mouthshapes).

Howis that they are independent. Cuing is not useful unless it is used in conjuction with speech. The morpheme has to be produced orally for the handshape to have significance.

Studies have consistently find that deaf kids who are exposed to cued languages acquire them the same way as the hearing who are exposed to spoken languages.

Back that up with studies, please. If this was such a wonderful rtechnique, it would certainly be used. I don't see that happening.

Just think... if you can't hear, you need to see phonemes that are visual. Each cue represents a phoneme just like each speech sound represents a phoneme.

If you can't hear, you need to have concept represented visually. If you don't have an understanding of the concept, the phonemes ands morphemes are useless.

If teachers use cued English in deaf schools, I can tell you that their English language will FINALLY get on the par with the hearing but deaf politics, past bitterness, and ignorance are preventing deaf kids from having equal access to English. Remember, speech is NOT required. Deaf cuers can have terrible speech yet can cue perfect English!

Where do you get this information? I really don't believe that ignorance is responsible for the lack opf CS being used either socially or educationally. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. CS has been proven to be ineffective in the language acquisition process. The usefulness lies with adding additional visual information to speechreading.


By the way, I am a deaf cuer. Have been cueing since I was 8 years old. :)


And whatr method of communication did you use prior to cueing?
 
"CS is not a language. It is an MCE."

MCE means "Manually Coded English" and CS fits that bill well however, you cannot say that SEE/LOVE/PSE is MCE because they don't code English. Studies have shown that deaf students don't learn Engilsh the way they should learn.

"CS is not new. It is a system that was developed, and has proven to be generally ineffective in language acquisition. It is useful only if one already knows English, and is an asssistive tool to vacilitate speechreading. Identifying morphemes is not helpful if one does not knowthe differnce inthe concept represented."

You are seriously WRONG! CS was invented for language acquisition. That's the sole reason. You do NOT need to know English in order to know cued English. With your logic, it's like saying that the hearing needs to know English before they use speech to hear and speak English! When a person cues to you, you RECEIVE English and in the process, you learn to express English through cuem. It's the same as kids recieving English through hearing and learning to speak English. Get it?

"Howis that they are independent. Cuing is not useful unless it is used in conjuction with speech. The morpheme has to be produced orally for the handshape to have significance."

You seem to hold a belief that anything that moves on lips is speech and it isn't. Speech requires SOUNDS. Moving your lips does not make it "speech" whatsoever. There is NO requirement that you must speak while cueing. If transliterators can mouth words while cueing, then it shows that speech isn't needed.



"Back that up with studies, please. If this was such a wonderful rtechnique, it would certainly be used. I don't see that happening."

CS helps hearing impaired children to comprehend discourse.
Musgrove, G. N. (1985) "Discourse comprehension by hearing-impaired children who use Cued Speech."
Doctoral dissertation, McGill University, Montreal.

CS enables deaf children to understand spoken language better than with lipreading alone. With parents cueing, the gain is greater than with cueing only at school. Greatest gain is with cueing both at home and at school.

Perrier, O., Charlier, B., Hage, C., & Alegria, J. (1987)
"Evaluation of the Effects of Prolonged Cued Speech Practice upon the Reception of Spoken Language."
In I. G. Taylor (Ed.) "The Education of the Deaf -- Current Perspectives," Vol. 1, 1985 International Congress on Education of the Deaf. Beckenham, Kent, UK: Croom Helm Ltd. (Reprinted in the Cued Speech Journal, 4, 1990)
Hage, C., Alegria, J., & Perier, O. (1989, July) "Cued Speech and Language Acquisition"
Paper presented at the Second International Symposium on Cognition, Education and Deafness, Washington, D.C. (Reprinted in The Cued Speech Journal, 4, 1990)

CS learners with severe to profound losses averaged better than 92% of hearing impaired children on the Rhode Island Test of Language Structure (RITLS) for receptive language.

Berendt, H., Krupnik-Goldman, B., & Rupp, K. (1990)
"Receptive and expressive language abilities of hearing-impaired children who use Cued Speech." Master's Thesis, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO.

learners with severe to profound hearing losses scored as well as hearing children using the Developmental Sentence Score (DSS) for expressive language. Children introduced to CS before age 2 scored significantly better than those who began later.
Berendt, H., Krupnik-Goldman, B., & Rupp, K. (1990) "Receptive and expressive language abilities of hearing-impaired children who use Cued Speech."
Master's Thesis, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO.

enables oral expressive language to develop well in a five-year-old prelingually profoundly deaf child even though his speech was unintelligible.

Kipila, B. (1985) "Analysis of an oral language sample from a prelingually deaf child's Cued Speech: A Case Study."
Cued Speech Annual, 1, 46-59.

CS profoundly deaf children surpass the majority of signing and oral children in verbal language skills.

Peterson, M. (1991) Data on Language of profoundly deaf children with oral, signing and Cued Speech backgrounds.
Data supplied by correspondence to R.O. Cornett and summarized in Cornett & Daisey "The Cued Speech Resource Book" (pp 697-699) 1992. National Cued Speech Association, Raleigh, NC.

develops, in a deaf child, an internal phonological model of the spoken language that can prime the whole process of reading acquisition.

Alegria, J., Dejean, C., Capouillez, J. M., & Leybaert, J. (1989, May) "Role Played by the Cued Speech in the Identification of Written Words Encountered for the First Time by Deaf Children." Presented at the annual meeting of the Belgian Psychological Society, Louvain-la-Neuve. (Reprinted in the Cued Speech Journal, 4, 1990).

There are plenty of studies showing the positive results of using Cued Spech.

"If you can't hear, you need to have concept represented visually. If you don't have an understanding of the concept, the phonemes ands morphemes are useless."

Huh? Sounds, cues, and signs are meaningless themselves. It's through social interaction that they develop concepts associated with signs or cues or speech. You can read a book written in German and you'll NEVER understand what it's saying unless you INTERACT with Germans.

"In fact, it is exactly the opposite. CS has been proven to be ineffective in the language acquisition process. "

Show me a study that says that so!

"And whatr method of communication did you use prior to cueing?"

Oralism. I didnt' have language at all. Only 20 words and that's it. It was CS that made me acquire English visually.

"Phonemic Awareness through Immersion in Cued American English"

"Cueing changes the way we define English phonemes. Phonemes remain the smallest unit of English that distinguishes one word from another, i.e., the consonant and vowel building blocks, but they no longer need be defined by acoustic characteristics or tied to the speech sounds of the language. Through cueing, the phonemes of English become a purely visual event. Cueing allows the deaf child full access to the phonemic code of English through vision alone. As a result, the way we define phonemes must change. English phonemes can be conveyed acoustically through speech or they can be conveyed visually through cueing. (2001, p. 1)"

"At a later date, however, when we—my colleagues and I— were faced with the data that deaf children immersed in English via cueing were consistently achieving higher literacy levels in English than deaf children in other programs, we determined that we had to put our attitudes of bias, ridicule, and skepticism aside. If literacy in English was possible as a result of immersion via cued English, we concluded such bias and ridicule was inappropriate and self-serving."

Phonemic Awareness through Immersion in Cued American English--KidsWorld Deaf Net E-Doc--Gallaudet's Laurent Clerc National Deaf Education Center
 
read both threads and i have to say this was a fascinating information i learned today, I'll post futher when i get home as i have to head out soon :)
 
"CS is not a language. It is an MCE."

MCE means "Manually Coded English" and CS fits that bill well however, you cannot say that SEE/LOVE/PSE is MCE because they don't code English. Studies have shown that deaf students don't learn Engilsh the way they should learn.

SEE and PSE are most definately MCEs. And yes, they do manually code English. And yes, studies have shown that deaf children do not learn language the way they should, and that is the direct result of linguistic deprivation occurring in the home and school environments. Studies also show that these deficits have become more and more pronounced withthe use of systems such as SEE, PSE, and CS. Whent he child is permitted to develop linguistic competence through the use of ASL as the L1 language and English as the L2 language, these deficits are mediated to a larger degree than with any other system.

"CS is not new. It is a system that was developed, and has proven to be generally ineffective in language acquisition. It is useful only if one already knows English, and is an asssistive tool to vacilitate speechreading. Identifying morphemes is not helpful if one does not knowthe differnce inthe concept represented."

You are seriously WRONG! CS was invented for language acquisition. That's the sole reason. You do NOT need to know English in order to know cued English. With your logic, it's like saying that the hearing needs to know English before they use speech to hear and speak English! When a person cues to you, you RECEIVE English and in the process, you learn to express English through cuem. It's the same as kids recieving English through hearing and learning to speak English. Get it?


CS and the Rochester method provide gloss for English. In dealing with very young children, their ability to make the small and precise distinctions in hand and finger movements that are necessary for for differentiating between many similar hand configurations that have the same meaning is limited. This difficulty in expressive formulations (and perhaps in receptive differentiation, as well) make these two approaches less than useful in providing initial linguistic input for the very young child first acquiring language. This means a delay for parents in receiving feedback from the child that serves as reinforcement for their further linguistic productions.


"Howis that they are independent. Cuing is not useful unless it is used in conjuction with speech. The morpheme has to be produced orally for the handshape to have significance."

You seem to hold a belief that anything that moves on lips is speech and it isn't. Speech requires SOUNDS. Moving your lips does not make it "speech" whatsoever. There is NO requirement that you must speak while cueing. If transliterators can mouth words while cueing, then it shows that speech isn't needed.

No, but you must reproduce the word visusally through mouth movements. Once again, without knowledge of the word or the concept it represents, this movement is meaningless. Providing differentiation between morphemes and phonemes does nothing to represent concept. Without conceptual undertanding, knowing what the word looks like through cued speech does not promote the acquisition of language.



"Back that up with studies, please. If this was such a wonderful rtechnique, it would certainly be used. I don't see that happening."

CS helps hearing impaired children to comprehend discourse.
Musgrove, G. N. (1985) "Discourse comprehension by hearing-impaired children who use Cued Speech."
Doctoral dissertation, McGill University, Montreal.

This refers to the understanding of the actual English communication in childrenthat have already developed English competence, not to language acquisition.

CS enables deaf children to understand spoken language better than with lipreading alone. With parents cueing, the gain is greater than with cueing only at school. Greatest gain is with cueing both at home and at school.

Once again, this refers to understanding the spoken language in children who already have developed English skills. That is, understanding a concept that they have already internalized, and as an aid to speechg reading. That is a very different situation than a child who is acquiring language.

Perrier, O., Charlier, B., Hage, C., & Alegria, J. (1987)
"Evaluation of the Effects of Prolonged Cued Speech Practice upon the Reception of Spoken Language."
In I. G. Taylor (Ed.) "The Education of the Deaf -- Current Perspectives," Vol. 1, 1985 International Congress on Education of the Deaf. Beckenham, Kent, UK: Croom Helm Ltd. (Reprinted in the Cued Speech Journal, 4, 1990)
Hage, C., Alegria, J., & Perier, O. (1989, July) "Cued Speech and Language Acquisition"
Paper presented at the Second International Symposium on Cognition, Education and Deafness, Washington, D.C. (Reprinted in The Cued Speech Journal, 4, 1990)

This is very old research, and once again, refers to children who have been raised and educated orally, and have acquired some degree of English competency. It supports the fact that English competency is necessary for cuing to be effective in facilitating understanding of English.

CS learners with severe to profound losses averaged better than 92% of hearing impaired children on the Rhode Island Test of Language Structure (RITLS) for receptive language.

Berendt, H., Krupnik-Goldman, B., & Rupp, K. (1990)
"Receptive and expressive language abilities of hearing-impaired children who use Cued Speech." Master's Thesis, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO.

learners with severe to profound hearing losses scored as well as hearing children using the Developmental Sentence Score (DSS) for expressive language. Children introduced to CS before age 2 scored significantly better than those who began later.

And children introduced to sign language before age 2 perform most closely to their hearing peers when matched for age and grade. The control group for this study was deaf children who were exposed to oral language only, and deaf children who were exposed to oral language plus CS. It does not represent all groups, and the deaf exposed to sign prior to age 2 outperform the CS group in study after study.
Berendt, H., Krupnik-Goldman, B., & Rupp, K. (1990) "Receptive and expressive language abilities of hearing-impaired children who use Cued Speech."
Master's Thesis, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO.

enables oral expressive language to develop well in a five-year-old prelingually profoundly deaf child even though his speech was unintelligible.

There it is. Allows oral expressive language to develop. There is the key word...ORAL....and the concern is unintelligble speech.

Kipila, B. (1985) "Analysis of an oral language sample from a prelingually deaf child's Cued Speech: A Case Study."
Cued Speech Annual, 1, 46-59.

CS profoundly deaf children surpass the majority of signing and oral children in verbal language skills.

VERBAL, there it is again. Just provingthat CS is an adjucnt to the oral philosophy, and simply another tool that promotes the oral philospophy....a philosophy which has been proven over time to be detrimental to language acquisition inthe young deaf child.

Peterson, M. (1991) Data on Language of profoundly deaf children with oral, signing and Cued Speech backgrounds.
Data supplied by correspondence to R.O. Cornett and summarized in Cornett & Daisey "The Cued Speech Resource Book" (pp 697-699) 1992. National Cued Speech Association, Raleigh, NC.

develops, in a deaf child, an internal phonological model of the spoken language that can prime the whole process of reading acquisition.


That simply means that the child can recognize what the word looks like in print and can produce a reasonable facsimle through speech. That doesn't mean that a child is literate, becasue conceptual understanding is necessary for literacy. Even hearing children have been taught to sight read for years. That doesn't mean that they can then take what they have read, and explain the meaning.


Alegria, J., Dejean, C., Capouillez, J. M., & Leybaert, J. (1989, May) "Role Played by the Cued Speech in the Identification of Written Words Encountered for the First Time by Deaf Children." Presented at the annual meeting of the Belgian Psychological Society, Louvain-la-Neuve. (Reprinted in the Cued Speech Journal, 4, 1990).

There are plenty of studies showing the positive results of using Cued Spech.

"If you can't hear, you need to have concept represented visually. If you don't have an understanding of the concept, the phonemes ands morphemes are useless."

Huh? Sounds, cues, and signs are meaningless themselves. It's through social interaction that they develop concepts associated with signs or cues or speech. You can read a book written in German and you'll NEVER understand what it's saying unless you INTERACT with Germans.

EXACTLY! And since cues do not represent concepts, but only those phonemes and morphemes that orally represent the symbol, it is not useful for developing conceptual understandingthat is paramount for internalization of language.

"In fact, it is exactly the opposite. CS has been proven to be ineffective in the language acquisition process. "

Show me a study that says that so!

Just paraphrased numerous studies in my replies. If you want to read hard copies of the numerous research that supports this contention, I suggest you try the journals devoted to cognitive psychological research and not CS journals.

"And whatr method of communication did you use prior to cueing?"

Oralism. I didnt' have language at all. Only 20 words and that's it. It was CS that made me acquire English visually.

There you go....yousaid you were 8 years old when you started learing CS. Twenty words for an eight year old is sever language deprivation.

"Phonemic Awareness through Immersion in Cued American English"

"Cueing changes the way we define English phonemes. Phonemes remain the smallest unit of English that distinguishes one word from another, i.e., the consonant and vowel building blocks, but they no longer need be defined by acoustic characteristics or tied to the speech sounds of the language. Through cueing, the phonemes of English become a purely visual event. Cueing allows the deaf child full access to the phonemic code of English through vision alone. As a result, the way we define phonemes must change. English phonemes can be conveyed acoustically through speech or they can be conveyed visually through cueing. (2001, p. 1)"

English is made visual through writing. The wholelinguisitic structure of English is based on auditory percpetion and a linear representation.

"At a later date, however, when we—my colleagues and I— were faced with the data that deaf children immersed in English via cueing were consistently achieving higher literacy levels in English than deaf children in other programs, we determined that we had to put our attitudes of bias, ridicule, and skepticism aside. If literacy in English was possible as a result of immersion via cued English, we concluded such bias and ridicule was inappropriate and self-serving."

Once again, there is a mountain of educaitonal and psychological research that shows that deaf of deaf who have been exposed to sign as young children achieve the highest reading comrehension scores and perform at a more equal level to their hearing peers than any other group. The deaf children in other programs here refers to chioldren on ORAL ONLY programs.

Phonemic Awareness through Immersion in Cued American English--KidsWorld Deaf Net E-Doc--Gallaudet's Laurent Clerc National Deaf Education Center


I stand by my claim that CS is not useful in language acquisition, and without early language acquisition and internalization, literacy cannot be improved to the degree that deaf children are able to function at the same level as their hearing peers.
 
netrox, I knew she will say those.. as you can see that she and loml butted heads in this thread; http://www.alldeaf.com/deaf-education/35027-breaking-code.html

Yep, I will continue to say it. Why? Because this is another system that attempts to overcome deficits that the oral only approach creates. Fluency and literacy problems cannot be corrected to any degree untilyou address the core issue causingthe problems; language deprivation.
 
read both threads and i have to say this was a fascinating information i learned today, I'll post futher when i get home as i have to head out soon :)

I'm glad you find it interesting. I look forward to your input.
 
jillio, I have no idea who you are but I can say you are way off base and have no clue what language is all about. You said, "Once again, without knowledge of the word or the concept it represents, this movement is meaningless."

Huh? How do you develop concepts? You learn from social interaction with speakers/signers/cuers. You don't magically get a concept from signs/cues/speech unless you learn to associate them with concepts through experience. Signs, cues, and speech are meaningless unless you attach a concept to them. You make no sense at all.

"There it is. Allows oral expressive language to develop. There is the key word...ORAL....and the concern is unintelligble speech."

You don't know what the study is actually saying, do you? When it said, "oral language", it was talking about English, not speech. It pointed out that the deaf cuer was developing ENGLISH despite impaired speech. Remember, speech and English are NOT the same. It's something you seem to fail to grasp. It said that the child developed language WELL despite bad speech.

"English is made visual through writing. The wholelinguisitic structure of English is based on auditory percpetion and a linear representation."

While written English is visual, written English does NOT interact with a reader. It cannot give you feedback. It cannot interact with you. Cued English is an interactive language - if a deaf cuer cuereads and doesn't understand a cued word, the deaf cuer can ask the cuer and the cuer can explain more in cued English. That's a huge difference. It's all about NATURAL INTERACTION.

You can listen to a radio spoken in Japanese and you will NEVER learn Japanese. If you go to Japan and interact with Japanese people, you will learn Japanese.

That's the only way to learn language.

Additionally, cueing is NOT fingerspelling. It does not cue based on spelling or even based on what sounds like. You cue what is considered phonemically and linguistically correct. For example, water may sound like "wadur" for some people but you cannot cue "wah-dur" as it would be linguistically and phonemically incorrect.

Phoneme and phonetic are NOT the same. Phoneme is an abstract value. Phonetic is something you use to represent a phoneme.

"Once again, there is a mountain of educaitonal and psychological research that shows that deaf of deaf who have been exposed to sign as young children achieve the highest reading comrehension scores and perform at a more equal level to their hearing peers than any other group. The deaf children in other programs here refers to chioldren on ORAL ONLY programs."

Really? Show me.. and now compare those studies AGAINST cuers. All studies have consistently find that cuers outperformed ALL groups. :) The fact that an average deaf cuer performs better than 92% of the deaf population speaks a huge volume abuot how powerful cued speech is.

"This is very old research, and once again, refers to children who have been raised and educated orally, and have acquired some degree of English competency. It supports the fact that English competency is necessary for cuing to be effective in facilitating understanding of English."

Once again, you have NOT read those studies. You just assume. Those kids are NATIVE cuers - they learned cued English as their native language.

"And children introduced to sign language before age 2 perform most closely to their hearing peers when matched for age and grade. "

Show me a study. :) I hear "we have a study to prove it..." but they have NOTHING to prove it. I have provided plenty of studies proving that cued speech enables the deaf to acquire English.

"I stand by my claim that CS is not useful in language acquisition, and without early language acquisition and internalization, literacy cannot be improved to the degree that deaf children are able to function at the same level as their hearing peers."

You are seriously mistaken to think that CS is not useful. How do deaf cuekids develop language? They developed language because of cued speech - they can see English VISUALLY and they process English visually. They also learn to speak (which most do) and it was much easier for them to learn to speak because cueing gives them a foundation of language.

Studies consistently find that deaf cuekids do better, period. They compared over and over... and the result is the same over and over - cuekids are better academically, English-wise. Even better than oralists and signers. It just works. :)
 
jillio, I have no idea who you are but I can say you are way off base and have no clue what language is all about. You said, "Once again, without knowledge of the word or the concept it represents, this movement is meaningless."

No you don't know who I am, but I do believe I can claim a greater degree of profieciency and knowledge in the area of language acquisition and linguistics that the majority of the population, as I have done extensive studies at the graduate level.
Huh? How do you develop concepts? You learn from social interaction with speakers/signers/cuers. You don't magically get a concept from signs/cues/speech unless you learn to associate them with concepts through experience. Signs, cues, and speech are meaningless unless you attach a concept to them. You make no sense at all.

Yes, you do develop concepts from social interaction. However, in a language deprived environment, that social interaction is also deprived,a nd therefore, not condusive to the development of conceptual knowledge.

"There it is. Allows oral expressive language to develop. There is the key word...ORAL....and the concern is unintelligble speech."

You don't know what the study is actually saying, do you? When it said, "oral language", it was talking about English, not speech. It pointed out that the deaf cuer was developing ENGLISH despite impaired speech. Remember, speech and English are NOT the same. It's something you seem to fail to grasp. It said that the child developed language WELL despite bad speech.

You are mistaken on this one. What the study said wa expressive English skills, and that was referrring tothe fact that he could make himself understood to other oral cuers. And, as English is an oral auditory language, any reference to learning it refers to the learning of, and production of an oral auditory language. This holds true for any language that is oral auditory in function.

"English is made visual through writing. The wholelinguisitic structure of English is based on auditory percpetion and a linear representation."

While written English is visual, written English does NOT interact with a reader. It cannot give you feedback. It cannot interact with you. Cued English is an interactive language - if a deaf cuer cuereads and doesn't understand a cued word, the deaf cuer can ask the cuer and the cuer can explain more in cued English. That's a huge difference. It's all about NATURAL INTERACTION.

No, any form of English that is made visual in a manner other than writing is not natural, because you are converting the linear structure to a visual structure that is time and saptially based. That is exactly why the MCEs are called unnatural forms of language.

You can listen to a radio spoken in Japanese and you will NEVER learn Japanese. If you go to Japan and interact with Japanese people, you will learn Japanese.
If you are hearing, this interaction will lead to the learning of another language, because you already have L1 language that is auditory oral in its stucture. If you are deaf, however, this will not happen. You will learn Japanese sign in the same way, but the learning of spoken Japanese will require intervention, just as the learning of spoken English does.



That's the only way to learn language.
Granted, perihereal acquisition is the way to acquire language. And that is the problem with oral language3 for the deaf child. It is not an acquisition process, but a learned process. And that fact alone interferes with developing fluency as a native. And when the child is not permitted to develop a language through natural acquisition, but only through intervention of a learning process, the results are a failure to develop internalized language use in any language. Simply becaue oral English is a deaf person first and only language does not imply, nor does it mean in any way, that their use of that language parrallels the use by a hearing person who has acquired it through a peiphereal, natural process.

Additionally, cueing is NOT fingerspelling. It does not cue based on spelling or even based on what sounds like. You cue what is considered phonemically and linguistically correct. For example, water may sound like "wadur" for some people but you cannot cue "wah-dur" as it would be linguistically and phonemically incorrect.

No cuing is not fingerspelling. But just as the Rochester method is a system to gloss English, so is cuing a system to gloss English. Phonemic correctness is not the same as linguistic correctness.
Phoneme and phonetic are NOT the same. Phoneme is an abstract value. Phonetic is something you use to represent a phoneme.

I am well aware of what a phoneme is, what a morpheme is, and what phonetics are.
"Once again, there is a mountain of educaitonal and psychological research that shows that deaf of deaf who have been exposed to sign as young children achieve the highest reading comrehension scores and perform at a more equal level to their hearing peers than any other group. The deaf children in other programs here refers to chioldren on ORAL ONLY programs."

Really? Show me.. and now compare those studies AGAINST cuers. All studies have consistently find that cuers outperformed ALL groups. :) The fact that an average deaf cuer performs better than 92% of the deaf population speaks a huge volume abuot how powerful cued speech is.
That is a cued study, and those result are not found when cuers are compared to ALL GROUPS OF DEAF, but only to oral deaf.

"This is very old research, and once again, refers to children who have been raised and educated orally, and have acquired some degree of English competency. It supports the fact that English competency is necessary for cuing to be effective in facilitating understanding of English."

Once again, you have NOT read those studies. You just assume. Those kids are NATIVE cuers - they learned cued English as their native language.

Yes, I have read the studies, and cueing cannot be considered native as it is not a language Nativity would apply only to the fact that English is their first language. English in any form is still English. Mode does not transform it into a separate language. Therefore, CS is English, just as spoken English is English, and written English is English. And simply because they have learned English as their only language does not equal native fluency..

"And children introduced to sign language before age 2 perform most closely to their hearing peers when matched for age and grade. "

Show me a study. :) I hear "we have a study to prove it..." but they have NOTHING to prove it. I have provided plenty of studies proving that cued speech enables the deaf to acquire English.

There is reams and reams of educational and psychological research that proves it. And the research was done by cognitive psychologists and linguistis that have no stake in the method used.

"I stand by my claim that CS is not useful in language acquisition, and without early language acquisition and internalization, literacy cannot be improved to the degree that deaf children are able to function at the same level as their hearing peers."

You are seriously mistaken to think that CS is not useful. How do deaf cuekids develop language? They developed language because of cued speech - they can see English VISUALLY and they process English visually. They also learn to speak (which most do) and it was much easier for them to learn to speak because cueing gives them a foundation of language.

CS kids continue to perform at levels that indicate deficits in language.
they were taught language. And I did not say it wasn't useful. I said it wa not useful in the acquisition process, and that, unless a child has a grasp of oral language, it will not provide the information necessary to convey concept. It is simply another method to promote the use of oral language at the cost of depriving the deaf child of a linguistically rich environment that facilitates natural language acquisition.
Studies consistently find that deaf cuekids do better, period. They compared over and over... and the result is the same over and over - cuekids are better academically, English-wise. Even better than oralists and signers. It just works. :)

Only when compared to groups of oral deaf that do not use any other visual cue than speechreading. That makes the comparison very very limited. If research truly found the results that you are claiming, then cuing would be widely used in both social communication and educational environments. The fact of the matter, it is not. Likewise, cuers are more limited in their ability to communicate than are signers because of the relatively isolated use of the system. And cuers are oral. They have as their L1 language a language that is orally based.
 
"No you don't know who I am, but I do believe I can claim a greater degree of profieciency and knowledge in the area of language acquisition and linguistics that the majority of the population, as I have done extensive studies at the graduate level."

Ok, let me assume you know linguistics enough...

"Yes, you do develop concepts from social interaction. However, in a language deprived environment, that social interaction is also deprived,a nd therefore, not condusive to the development of conceptual knowledge."

Well, of course. That's exactly what cued speech is for - you use it to provide LANGUAGE to the deaf and the deaf LEARNS language through cued speech.

"You are mistaken on this one. What the study said wa expressive English skills, and that was referrring tothe fact that he could make himself understood to other oral cuers. And, as English is an oral auditory language, any reference to learning it refers to the learning of, and production of an oral auditory language. This holds true for any language that is oral auditory in function."

The problem with your thinking is that since English is traditionally a spoken language, it cannot be converted to visual English and that's where you are incorrect. Cueing proved that English can be rendered visually. It was later discovered that deaf kids who used cued English was able to process English the same way the hearing processes English and that's where the paradigm thinking is dramatically shifted. They've tried with MCE's (SEE, LOVE, etc) and they couldn't get them to think in English. Why? Because they were woefully ignorant of how language works. They didn't understand that in order to access oral languages, you need to have access to the building blocks of language - phonemes. Signs don't provide phonemes therefore it's incapable of providing an accurate picture of English.

Cues provide access to phonemes and since each cue represents a phoneme, it lets you see HOW the English is rendered. It doesn't have to be acoustic anymore.

"No, any form of English that is made visual in a manner other than writing is not natural, because you are converting the linear structure to a visual structure that is time and saptially based. That is exactly why the MCEs are called unnatural forms of language."

Again, you're wrong. In "Cued Language Structure," on page 79:

"Since its development in 1966, a variety of characteristics has been attributed to cueing. Some have called cueing a supplement to speechreading and/or a visual representation of speech sounds. Others have suggested that cueing cannot be understand unless the reciever first knows the language that is being cued. It has also said that undering cueing is related to the recevier's ability to hear and/or speak. From a lingusitic perspective, evidence suggests that none of these is true."

That's exactly what you are ASSUMING and the book says it's not true. Remember, the book were written by two linguists fluent in ASL and cued English.

Furthmore, they wrote: "It was once thought that languages must be spoken. Stokoe, and the signed language linguists who follow him, have changed this once held belief. Similiarly, for many years, it has been thought that silently rendered visual languages must be spatial. The analysis of cued language in the previous chapter suggests this is not the case, not only does language not require speech but speech is apparently not a requisite of languages that have traditionally been spoken... Unlike a plethora of attempts to respent English visually in face-to-face interaction, linguistic analysis suggests that cuem succeeds at rendering English in the visual medium. It appears that cueing, like each of speaking and signing, conforms to Chomsky's signal meaning correspondence, using a non-traditional set of articulators to convey phonological, morphological, and syntactic structures of a particular language."

So, you are mistaken to think that visual languages have to be spatial. Or that kids have to know English in order to cue. They don't. They acquire naturally.
 
"No you don't know who I am, but I do believe I can claim a greater degree of profieciency and knowledge in the area of language acquisition and linguistics that the majority of the population, as I have done extensive studies at the graduate level."

Ok, let me assume you know linguistics enough...

"Yes, you do develop concepts from social interaction. However, in a language deprived environment, that social interaction is also deprived,a nd therefore, not condusive to the development of conceptual knowledge."

Well, of course. That's exactly what cued speech is for - you use it to provide LANGUAGE to the deaf and the deaf LEARNS language through cued speech.

And ASL does that without the need for extensive intervention. CS is useful for removing the abiguiity involved in speech reading. It, for instance, can distinguish the difference between "beach" and "peach" by representing the beginning phoneme of the word. It does not, however, provide information of concept. ASL on the other hand, represents concept in such a way that one knows that not only do these concepts "spound different" as with CS, but they are completley different ideas. And this conceptual information is readily available.

"You are mistaken on this one. What the study said wa expressive English skills, and that was referrring tothe fact that he could make himself understood to other oral cuers. And, as English is an oral auditory language, any reference to learning it refers to the learning of, and production of an oral auditory language. This holds true for any language that is oral auditory in function."

The problem with your thinking is that since English is traditionally a spoken language, it cannot be converted to visual English and that's where you are incorrect. Cueing proved that English can be rendered visually. It was later discovered that deaf kids who used cued English was able to process English the same way the hearing processes English and that's where the paradigm thinking is dramatically shifted. They've tried with MCE's (SEE, LOVE, etc) and they couldn't get them to think in English. Why? Because they were woefully ignorant of how language works. They didn't understand that in order to access oral languages, you need to have access to the building blocks of language - phonemes. Signs don't provide phonemes therefore it's incapable of providing an accurate picture of English.

English can be rendered visually--that is the purpose of written English. All languages, including the signs of ASL are built upon phonemes and morphemes. Therefore, the building blocks of language,as you call them, can be acquired through ASL, as well. And yes, one does need to understand how language works. In order to do that one must acquire a strong L1 language. Writing the the visual form that provides a visual representation of English. Language processed visually, and language processed orally are two different cognitive functions. What makes sense auditorily does not make sense visually. When using CS, you are still processing an audiory language. You are using visual cues, to be sure, but you use visual cues when processing oral language through speech reading, as well. Simply adding visual cues does not convert an oral language into a visual langauge.

Cues provide access to phonemes and since each cue represents a phoneme, it lets you see HOW the English is rendered. It doesn't have to be acoustic anymore.

It doesn't have to be acoustic when it is processed through speechreading, either. That is the problem. It is still, whether acoustic or not, a language evolved to suit the needs of oral processing. It is,and always will be, an oral auditory language, no matter how many differnet ways are devised to make it visable. Braille makes English tactile, as well. That doesn't mean it is suddenly a tactile language. It only means that it is an oral language presented in a tactile mode.

"No, any form of English that is made visual in a manner other than writing is not natural, because you are converting the linear structure to a visual structure that is time and saptially based. That is exactly why the MCEs are called unnatural forms of language."

Again, you're wrong. In "Cued Language Structure," on page 79:

"Since its development in 1966, a variety of characteristics has been attributed to cueing. Some have called cueing a supplement to speechreading and/or a visual representation of speech sounds. Others have suggested that cueing cannot be understand unless the reciever first knows the language that is being cued. It has also said that undering cueing is related to the recevier's ability to hear and/or speak. From a lingusitic perspective, evidence suggests that none of these is true."

That's exactly what you are ASSUMING and the book says it's not true. Remember, the book were written by two linguists fluent in ASL and cued English.

Furthmore, they wrote: "It was once thought that languages must be spoken. Stokoe, and the signed language linguists who follow him, have changed this once held belief. Similiarly, for many years, it has been thought that silently rendered visual languages must be spatial. The analysis of cued language in the previous chapter suggests this is not the case, not only does language not require speech but speech is apparently not a requisite of languages that have traditionally been spoken... Unlike a plethora of attempts to respent English visually in face-to-face interaction, linguistic analysis suggests that cuem succeeds at rendering English in the visual medium. It appears that cueing, like each of speaking and signing, conforms to Chomsky's signal meaning correspondence, using a non-traditional set of articulators to convey phonological, morphological, and syntactic structures of a particular language."

So, you are mistaken to think that visual languages have to be spatial. Or that kids have to know English in order to cue. They don't. They acquire naturally.


I did not say that visual languages have to be spatial.....I said that they are spatial, quite a different thing. Could you provide me with authors, publication date, etc. for the book you have quoted? I would like to consult it prior to commenting on the excerpt you have provided.

And I still question....CS has been around for 40 years. If it is such a miracle tool in providing access tolanguage for deaf children and thus improving literacy rates and academic functioning, why is it not in widespread use? CS pretty much went the way of the dinosaur until CI came onthe scene, and withit the resurgence of oralism.
 
And I jsut want to make it perfectly clear, I am not saying the CS cannot be a useful tool in reducing ambiguity in speech reading, nor am I saying that there has never been a case of a successful CS user. Obviously, you have done well withthe system. But what I am saying is that its usefulness is limited, and that even though it has produced some successes, just as the oral only method has produced some successes, as a generalized method of education or communication, it, overall, will produce more failures than successes. It contains the same problems that oral only contains in the risk of creating language deprivation for deaf children.
 
Studies consistently find that deaf cuekids do better, period. They compared over and over... and the result is the same over and over - cuekids are better academically, English-wise. Even better than oralists and signers. It just works. :)

Interesting discussion Netrox. Why isn't cued speech more widespread if it's so successful? I never came across it in UK or Australia, although I'm sure there are branches somewhere.

Oops sorry I just realised that Jillio has asked you the same question. I'll read your reply to her so you can avoid posting twice.
 
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Interesting discussion Netrox. Why isn't cued speech more widespread if it's so successful? I never came across it in UK or Australia, although I'm sure there are branches somewhere.

Oops sorry I just realised that Jillio has asked you the same question. I'll read your reply to her so you can avoid posting twice.

Guess the question can't be answered.
 
I am busy, give me a break!

CS was not widely used despite the success is because people refuse to believe it! They rationalize saying it's because of CS kid's economics (false), cuekids prior language (false), cuekids' residual hearing (false) - none of those criticisms are valid.

CS works but biases and ignorances prevent CS from being accepted. They're not receptive to using CS all thet ime. They're not fond with the idea that they have to cue all the time.

Take Mac for an example. Macs work. They just work. Studies repeatedly find that Mac users are more productive and achieve more tasks in less time than Windows users, even if Windows users are more expereinced with Windows. Why? Mac provides an accurate consistent user interface. Yet, over 90% of computers are Windows.

Popularity NEVER means it's better. NEVER!
 
Interesting discussion Netrox. Why isn't cued speech more widespread if it's so successful? I never came across it in UK or Australia, although I'm sure there are branches somewhere.

Oops sorry I just realised that Jillio has asked you the same question. I'll read your reply to her so you can avoid posting twice.

Yea, I agree..if it is so successful for ALL deaf children, why isnt it being used worldwide?


My problem with Cued speech is that it is a rigid way of developing language..while ASL and English are more natural languages. If hearing children are taught using language, why not deaf children too? Why should deaf children be taught by several invented systems rather than a true language which is either English (or any other spoken language) or ASL (or other signed languages)?
 
I am busy, give me a break!

CS was not widely used despite the success is because people refuse to believe it! They rationalize saying it's because of CS kid's economics (false), cuekids prior language (false), cuekids' residual hearing (false) - none of those criticisms are valid.

CS works but biases and ignorances prevent CS from being accepted. They're not receptive to using CS all thet ime. They're not fond with the idea that they have to cue all the time.

Take Mac for an example. Macs work. They just work. Studies repeatedly find that Mac users are more productive and achieve more tasks in less time than Windows users, even if Windows users are more expereinced with Windows. Why? Mac provides an accurate consistent user interface. Yet, over 90% of computers are Windows.

Popularity NEVER means it's better. NEVER!

Fallicious comparison. If, and this is a big if, CS was so successful in increasing literacy rates and academic achievement via English acquisition, it would be widely used in the educational and social environments. It doesn't work, therefore it is not used. That is not to say that it can't be a useful tool, but just like all of the other systems devised under the banner of oralism, its uses are extremely limited.
 
Yea, I agree..if it is so successful for ALL deaf children, why isnt it being used worldwide?


My problem with Cued speech is that it is a rigid way of developing language..while ASL and English are more natural languages. If hearing children are taught using language, why not deaf children too? Why should deaf children be taught by several invented systems rather than a true language which is either English (or any other spoken language) or ASL (or other signed languages)?

BINGO! Rigidity in the system leads to rigidity in language usage.
 
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