EVIDENCE of being deaf with Hearing Aid device

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Sweetmind, what the heck are you talking about? did you read a word of what I wrote??

My daughters is CODA if you dont mind.. Many CODA are very good with ASL from d/Deaf parents who supports ASL so what is your point??
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Did I said CODA child can't be good with ASL? On the contrary I know almost all CODA children know ASL. It's obvious why. So what's YOUR POINT?

I am wrong wrong about ASLers people who write a beautifully english written that you refused to accept there are many intelligent ASlers out there.
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I was reffering to YOUR DAUGHTERS because YOU were using them as an example. YOUR daughters are hearing so i explained it mattered when they were learning English.
have you told me your daughters were DEAF and knew ASL only yet still perfected written English - that would be a different story..

You know- no disrespect, but you seem to be pretty chaotic in your own posts. Do you know what actually are you trying to say or what are we discussing?


I am so happy that it shows the fact of audist attitude people s behavior patterns that has been carrying on and on for years and years that you learned or got influence from them.
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Why are you calling me audits if I am for teaching ASL?

wow I couldnt believe you dont read it carefully. I wont answer your question anymore because you simply dont read it. That shows me you have a reading problem.
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I read and re - read what you wrote, the best proof is me using so many quotes. I am afraid you won't answer me because you know you were wrong.
You don't want to admit you could have been wrong.

You don't want to answer this for example:

OK so tell me - what do you think - which is better- to be able to understand just ASL, or ASL and English written?
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because, I think you would have to agree that actually it is always BETTER to know more.

Fuzzy
 
Audiofuzzy said:
OK so tell me - what do you think - which is better- to be able to understand just ASL, or ASL and English written?
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Of course it is better to understand both. I think Sweetmind is trying to say that oral communication shouldn't be forced on Deaf people, and I would agree with her on that.
 
Of course it is better to understand both. I think Sweetmind is trying to say that oral communication shouldn't be forced on Deaf people, and I would agree with her on that.
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No it shouldn't be forced but I think it is common sense to WANT to learn oral ways...

Fuzzy
 
gnulinuxman said:
In other words, Sweetmind is saying that SEE1 and SEE2 were invented instead of evolving naturally. ASL, for example, evolves naturally by its users. There is no single person who invented it. By contrast, SEE1 and SEE2 were invented mainly for classroom use.
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Thank you...very enlightening.
 
Ok for example you live in Canada. You do know in Canada we use both English and French?
Suppose you are English speaking and move to Quebec province. You can demand to be serviced in English in most places since officially Canada is bilangual, but most of Quebec folks speak French only.
Does it make sense to learn French so you can communicate with everybody?

Fuzzy
 
Audiofuzzy said:
Ok for example you live in Canada. You do know in Canada we use both English and French?
Suppose you are English speaking and move to Quebec province. You can demand to be serviced in English in most places since officially Canada is bilangual, but most of Quebec folks speak French only.
Does it make sense to learn French so you can communicate with everybody?

Fuzzy
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English isn't an oral-only language. It is also written (look at your computer monitor and you'll see what I mean). Deaf people can communicate with hearing people on paper if needed.
 
English isn't an oral-only language. It is also written (look at your computer monitor and you'll see what I mean). Deaf people can communicate with hearing people on paper if needed.
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Sure they can, the question is how well are they understood? And vice versa.
ASL grammar is different from hearing English, even in written form.
Look how many misunderstandings happens here because of this different grammar.
Look at Sweetie and me- surely you must have noticed she didn't get me every time and neither I did her.

Fuzzy
 
Hi, everybody...I am new here and thought of sharing my opinion. I spent a few ours reading all the posts. Interesting discussion with interesting point of views I may say.

My understanding is that the issue here is whether children should be reinforced to use the oral method as a way of communication along with ASL. I believe that there is no one single answer to the question "what's the best method of communication? Is it ASL? Is it oral language? Or both?" Every child is unique with unique needs and should be treated in a unique way. I don't think it is right to say that deaf children MUST learn how to speak. I understand that our society is mostly hearing but that does not mean that oral language should be forced upon deaf children. That of course goes the other way around. ASL should not be forced upon deaf children either. I think this whole issue has been debated for years and I think the debate will continue as long as there is a deaf community, people who are interested in the deaf, etc.

Now the issue of CIs. Hmmm...another strongly debated issue. Should the parents implant their children? I think nobody has the right to judge what one parent thinks is the best for his or her child. Who is to say what is wrong or right? I am sure that all parents want the best for their children. And parents who take the decision to have their child implanted only want to provide their child with all tools possible to survive and succeed in this society. Somebody here said that it is always great to learn more. And I agree. However, does one have to know how to speak in order to be able to learn more? It is not all about speaking..it is about being able to communicate. And if a deaf individual knows written English, communicating with hearing people is not a problem. Also why should communication always be the problem of the deaf? Communication is a two way street. Both parties should be willing to be able to communicate. It is not the responsibility of the deaf only just because he or she is the minority.

But when you constrain yourself to ASL, you cannot communicate with many others, except via writing.
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Cloggy, that is true. But (there is always a but) what if that is a choice? The deaf individual's choice or a parent's choice? I agree that children should be offered all the tools possible, and why not a CI? I understand that you had your daughter implanted because you wanted to give her a choice...and I think that any parent's decision should be at least respected no matter what our beliefs are. And I also think it is easy to say when you are not in the position of a parent who has a deaf child. I respect the parents who decides that a CI is best for their child but I also respect the parents who decide that ASL is best for their child or the parents who think both are the best for their child.

I've met deaf individuals who had speech therapy all their life and didn't manage to learn how to speak and I've met a few individuals who managed to have great speech. All of them told me stories of spending hours and hours every week on speech therapy...Some were happy for doing it..just because of the result....some were not, mostlikely the ones who did not learn how to speak. I am not deaf so I cannot speak as one..but I 've closed my ears while watching the news, tried to read the news' person lips, tried to understand my very mother tongue. It was impossible. It gave me a headache. Imagine a child having to go through this for all their childhood. I think this is what makes me think twice about this whole issue of being able to learn how to speak. The scene of a 4 year old trying to learn a language that s/he does not hear.

Of course, CIs give a totally different perspective to the process of speech therapy. Being able to give your child his or her hearing is considered a gift from many people. It all depends on how you decide to look at it. Are you implanting your child because you want your child to be able to be part of both worlds or do you implant your child because YOU as a parent don't want your child to have the stigma of being deaf? Because YOU can't deal with having a child that is different? Because YOU don't have the time to learn your child's natural language. Because ASL is the natural language of the deaf. And I think this is how Sweetmind looks at the whole issue and that's her mistake. She cannot understand that parents who are implanting their child are not doing it because they don't want to accept their child's deafness or because of other selfish reasons. She probably cannot comprehend that giving your child a choice is the less selfish thing to do. Is it less selfish though from constraining your child to spoken language only? I am just asking those questions just to raise some more questions. Can we really say that there is one single best method of communication for the deaf? I, personally, cannot say that.
 
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Sweetmind,

by now I understand where you're coming from. I understand that your intentions are only to protect deaf children. You, for sure, know better than I, how it is to be growing up in an environment in which everybody wants you to speak. You, probably, know more than any of us hearing, how it is not to be asked if you indeed want to learn how to speak. You, for sure, know how it feels to be growing up as a deaf child, probably, the only deaf child in the neighborhood. You, for sure, know how that does feel. To be trying to make everybody happy by speaking. I really respect your experiences, BUT, please just because you had had those experiences, does not mean that nobody else cares for deaf children or nobody else does not understand. Just because somebody decides to have his/her child implanted does not mean
they don't care for that child. I understand that you would love people to respect those children for what they are but I think it is time you start respecting the parents too. It is so unfair for the parents. You are a parent yourself and I shouldn't be saying that to you. You should be able to understand where the parent is coming from. You should start respecting the choices the parents make for their children. Now who am I to be telling who to respect? I am sorry to say that but I am simply so tired of your accusations every time somebody is in favor of CIs, or the oral method. Every time somebody disagrees with you, s/he is an audist, s/he doen't care about deaf children, etc..etc..and only you care. PLEASE show respect to the parents at least of those deaf children. They need support and not your accusations. You 've said many times (at Deafnotes) and at least once in this thread that you are here to educate us. You or I are not here to educate anybody. We are here to educate ourselves. We are here to share our beliefs...and yes to learn from each other...to become better teachers, better parents, better friends to our deaf loving people..to become a better society...more accepting of people who are different. There are people who do care, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Please read my post at least twice before you attack me.
 
Senior Member posted 01-11-2003 09:27 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/parenting/11/14/smart.babies/index.html

How to boost babies' brain power
Thursday, November 14, 2002 Posted: 3:20 PM EST (2020 GMT)

(CNN) -- More than 360,000 babies are born every day on the planet. Which one of them will grow up to be a future Shakespeare, find a cure for cancer or perhaps even prove Einstein wrong?

For a smarter baby, experts say it's not all in the books -- emotional development plays a big role in raising intelligent kids.

"We really need to change that historic dichotomy of cognition on the one hand, emotions on the other hand, and realize that our emotions are the fuel that gives rise to social behavior but also to different levels of intelligence," says Dr. Stanley Greenspan, a child development researcher at the George Washington University medical school.

Genetics also plays a role, but Greenspan says a baby's future is not
written in his DNA.

"Regardless of the history of IQ tests in the family, if I see nurturing, warm, interactive people who read emotional signals well and interact well, usually I see happy, competent and bright children," Greenspan says.

Besides parent-child interaction, there are other ways to increase baby brain power that have been in the spotlight recently:

• Breast-feeding is good for a baby -- and most experts say they believe it's also good for a baby's developing brain. Those who had been breast-fed for seven to nine months scored higher on IQ tests than those breast-fed for one month or less, according to a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association in May.

• Listening to music was once thought to enhance math skills. A 1999 Harvard medical school analysis of more than a dozen studies doesn't support this claim, but music and dancing can be excellent ways to interact.

• Other research shows infants can learn basic sign language even before they speak. These infants appear to grow up a little smarter, but some experts say they think the benefit is due to increased parent-child interaction.

• Baby reading lessons are growing in popularity. The makers of video, books and flash cards aimed at the very young claim to sometimes have 2-year-olds reading simple children's books by themselves. Some experts support these programs, while others oppose them.

"If you do a little bit of looking at books with your children and inspire them to be curious about the pictures and ... what the word means, but don't get into very structured systematic teaching at too early an age," Greenspan says, "and you also interact emotionally and have fun with pretend play ... then you have the best of both worlds."
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You cannot argue with me that it shows the fact about ASL itself that Deaf babies can achieve without devices if you mind. Thanks! ;)

My whole point is that it doesnt matter if HA or CI devices help you to hear the sound, it still doesnt get you to be a hearing person anywhere without sign language. You are struggling in many ways as far as I know it so. My philosphy is that some people and their prejudice on Deaf children are failure because of their attitude. I look at it as a failure that some people dont have any respect for d/Deaf people who prefer to use our hands to communicate with that we can being ourselves as is.

Thats the whole perceptive that I am seeing what their attitude is always be the same routine over the years and years. So what do they want from us after all we did learned how to speak that they never satisfied for who we Deaf people are. They couldnt handle us at all while we can use the survival kits of orally speaking that is fine with me. However dont make us to use our deaf voices and speak all day long for their sakes.. They need to work and earn it from us that will have the two ways street. Thats all I can ask.

I just cant help but feel offended for the Deaf children who are implanted by their parents...whether their intentions are good or otherwise...That is just my strong opinion. ASL does everything...hearing people have body language...which is part of ASL whether they realize it or not and they can understand me if I use my body language. That is two way street....Tv has the body language too..but not radio. Do you understand what I mean?

Another example is babies...even though I cannot hear, I can understand what babies want and they dont cry much with me. No words need to be said. Thats a perfect example of two way street. With or without voice.

I disagree with Cloggy's quote. There are other ways besides written english that people arent aware of. People dont write in complete sentences anyways while communicating so I dont see the point.

Thank you!! ;)
Sweetmind
 
vp, as far as your last post is concerned...Im sure you see where I stand on those CI issues...I will leave it at that. I have seen many CI failures...including members in this very forum...they were attacked for letting it be known that their CI is failure and they regret being implanted in the first place. Check out this URL http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27357 You can find the person who is a former CIer and no one respects him...for example. Many CI failure ppl try to admit their experiences..but ppl with Audist attitude attacked him for swearing while describing his story...Just read this and maybe you can understand a little bit more why my opinion still stands. I want the Deaf children to get Literacy before forcing th em to hear...this cannot be expected..that is WRONG...there is no 2 ways about it. Ive seen Deaf children with out CIs express more than CI children...whats wrong with that picture??

Thank you!! ;)
Sweetmind
 
http://www.iamyourchild.org/early.html


At birth, a baby's brain has about 100 billion nerve cells.
But the cells have not yet formed the critical connections that determine an individual's emotional, social, and intellectual make-up. Most of this "wiring" develops between the ages of 0 to 3.

By age 3, a child's brain has twice as many synapses - or connections - as an adult's. This suggests that infants and toddlers are biologically primed for learning, as synapses are a fundamental basis of learning. When a connection is used repeatedly in the early years, it becomes permanent. But a connection that is used rarely, or not at all, is unlikely to survive.

For example, studies show that a child who is rarely spoken to or read to in the early years may have difficulty mastering language skills later in life. Similarly, a child who is rarely played with may have difficulty with social adjustment as she grows.

Scientists have found that your relationship with your child affects his brain in many ways. By providing warm, responsive care, you strengthen the biological systems that help him handle his emotions. Research also shows that a strong, secure connection with your child helps him withstand the ordinary stresses of daily life -not just today, but in the future. A strong bond doesn't just reassure him, it actually affects the biological systems that adapt to stress.
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It s proven. Why bother to force or push too hard on d/Deaf children. Give them a break and let them have their own adaption if you mind.

People are always get the wrong impression if they saw our devices in our deaf ears that we can completely hear but we dont hear everything.. That s fact. We need to stop this audist attitude people who spreads misinformation about our deafness. So be it!

Thanks!
Sweetmind
 
Sweetmind said:
.

People are always get the wrong impression if they saw our devices in our deaf ears that we can completely hear but we dont hear everything.. That s fact. We need to stop this audist attitude people who spreads misinformation about our deafness. So be it!
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Will you PLEASE point out to a direct quote here where somebody who has a CI (or has a child with a CI ) says that they HEAR EVERYTHING??

I have repeatedly say that I don't. Cloggy says that his daughter doesn't. Boult says that he doesn't...etc...so can you show me where its being said that somebody with a CI hears everything?
 
gnulinuxman said:
In other words, Sweetmind is saying that SEE1 and SEE2 were invented instead of evolving naturally. ASL, for example, evolves naturally by its users. There is no single person who invented it. By contrast, SEE1 and SEE2 were invented mainly for classroom use.
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I feel it necessary to point out here that SEE1 and SEE2 were "invented" by deaf people.
 
BINGO! People complain that CIs are going to wipe out the Deaf community, but I disagree. I think that the lack of acceptance that you mentioned is going to be what ultimately drives people out of the Deaf community. How can you (all-inclusive) expect people with CIs to learn sign and want to socialize with other d/Deaf people if they see things like "CIs are evil"?
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We are getting tired of people with audist attitudes who have tried to take over Deaf community that is our Deaf culture and our preservation of ASL. No one can come in our Deaf community to take ASL away from us if you mind. Then they try to control and power over us and push us away to emphasize that CI deaf kids are better than Deaf children.. What s that supposed to be?? Guess what many Deaf children are further ahead than CI deaf chidlren because they do not have ASL in their early age.

And also, you dont even think about Deaf children in the first place and shovel it into their ears that doesnt work out for them to hear.. It doesnt make any sense to me and why destroy them and forget them after it failed them at first. Force them to have SEE in the classroom that is mainstream school and Oral deaf school that is not making any sense.

Dont force us to agree with you about CI device itself that we have the right the feelings against CI device itself not to these CI deaf children or people. I rather to have them around us because they are so innocent after all parents forced them to implant as many deaf children doesnt want to have it. Is that respect?? I THINK NOT!

You are latened deaf that we couldnt argue about that since you were a hearing person and cannot speak for d/Deaf people if you mind. It s same concept that I cannot speak for d/Deaf blind s tactile sign language so that's why I posted it to help them to see the fact of what d/Deaf blind people does. I have experience to communicate with them and touch their hands while we made the conversation without any problem.

I am happy you have CI for yourself however you cannot make me for not who I am. Thanks!

So be reasonable and dont make it a big scene about CI for d/Deaf chlidren who do not hear like what you can hear because you already established a spoken language and English language. Also, listen those sounds and comprehension words before you became deaf.. So be it! Dont ruin our d/Deaf children s adaptation and true identity.

As for d/Deaf adults that makes their choices that I didnt care. They will have to deal with all that hassles soon or later. Why bother to have more than two surgeries that is not necessary and it is not emergency for d/Deaf children to have CI at first place.


What I was trying to say is that SOME deaf people DO NOT ACCEPT the fact that they ARE DEAF.
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good post Deaf Dream! ;) That 's exactly what I am saying for a long time because they dont have any faith in us , Deaf people and our deafness that we are successful d/Deaf people in many ways without it. ;) They wont allow us for the fact of who we Deaf people are. They think they are failed for/by being deaf so they want to get the attention that they got CI devices in a way.

Why would I be jealousy over you and your CI device? Ha Ha Well I guess you are jealousy that we Deaf people have a true language that works so well with Hearing people with a very postiive attitude. ;) I can speak very well, many people dont make their effort to communicate with me that is a barrier communication by them. It is not me as a Deaf person.

If you mind, I can speak with some good strangers that we can laugh so hard to each other even though we do not speak a long conversation like hearing people does, and all without devices. They always ask me about ASL and think it s such a beautiful language that we share from our gifted appreciation and good heart. I would be glad to teach ASL to CI users...and hearing people as well.

Have a good day! ;)
Sweetmind
 
Sweetmind said:
vp, as far as your last post is concerned...Im sure you see where I stand on those CI issues...I will leave it at that. I have seen many CI failures...including members in this very forum...they were attacked for letting it be known that their CI is failure and they regret being implanted in the first place. Check out this URL http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27357 You can find the person who is a former CIer and no one respects him...for example. Many CI failure ppl try to admit their experiences..but ppl with Audist attitude attacked him for swearing while describing his story...Just read this and maybe you can understand a little bit more why my opinion still stands. I want the Deaf children to get Literacy before forcing th em to hear...this cannot be expected..that is WRONG...there is no 2 ways about it. Ive seen Deaf children with out CIs express more than CI children...whats wrong with that picture??

Thank you!! ;)
Sweetmind
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This person changed mind and want the new Freedom by Cochlear Corp....

First said this: http://alldeaf.com/showpost.php?p=516751&postcount=11

then in the same thread said this:
http://alldeaf.com/showpost.php?p=516763&postcount=14

obviously you missed this thread.
 
I wanted to point out that I don't think it is neccessary for the deaf person to speak,
but it is very valuable for them to know hearing English, the one that is used widely all over the world because knowing ASL grammar will come naturally with signing anyway.
But since hearing pple does not understand ASL grammar it unfortunately falls on the deaf person to learn this hearing written English. Most hearing pple does not need to know ASL grammar because they don't have any deaf in their families not they have any contact at all with any deaf pple. (I don't have any at all. I happen to see deaf pple at the mall maybe once or twice in a year.)

But the benefits of knowing both English-es are vast, starting from easy communication both ways to fully understanding anything that is written - instructions, magazines, books..

Fuzzy
 
Sweetmind said:
http://www.iamyourchild.org/early.html




It s proven. Why bother to force or push too hard on d/Deaf children. Give them a break and let them have their own adaption if you mind.

People are always get the wrong impression if they saw our devices in our deaf ears that we can completely hear but we dont hear everything.. That s fact. We need to stop this audist attitude people who spreads misinformation about our deafness. So be it!

Thanks!
Sweetmind
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This study you quoted is correct. but it does not matter which language is taught.. by the way, the link is broken. please re-check the url.

anyway, I posted this study on DN and you chose to ignore it and I have posted this in AD recently and it is over at: http://alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27911 This tells you no matter which language a child learned first will learn 2nd language with little difficulty. :dunno:
 
anyway, I posted this study on DN and you chose to ignore it and I have posted this in AD recently and it is over at: http://alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27911
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Look at yourself and your cheeky attitude towards me.. So what makes you think that I ignored this url? Scoffs! Now you can see why I dont like you and dont trust you for lying about me to your own followers who believe you and get bad tasty lollipops from you. All I can see is you pushed me down and bashed me all the time for 8 years until now. AND what is your problem? Thank you for your true colors. I not as stupid as you think I am.

Also I have asked you to back off and show some respect because you are wasting my time and making a fool out of yourself all along. I dont deal with these kind of people that I dont have to tolerate your bigotry attitude. Just because I dont reply does not mean I didnt read it.

This tells you no matter which language a child learned first will learn 2nd language with little difficulty.
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You are not making any sense in a way since I have learned ASL with d/Deaf children and English written that is my second language that it shows a lot of improvement without device if you mind. However audist people like you and your followers who attacked about my written english. It s very hardwork for me to do my writings every day as much as I can achieve. It s hard for me to deal with because English language has to do with spoken language in many ways that you had been taught in the classrooms. Some of you think I have someone to edit my writings. Yes of course I did it in the past because I have no confidence in myself at that time because of your attacks and degradation. You wont allow Deaf people to speak out freely or give them a chance to practice with writing and learn how to open up and express their true feelings without anyone to tell them what to do after all you have no respect at all from the start. That is what teachers did to the Deaf children also.

Guess what! I understood both Bi Bi languages that is ASL and Signed English with or without voices now. First ASL then SE that combines Bi Bi language should be in the classrooms if you put those d/Deaf children into mainstream or oral deaf school. ASL would fit one language for all of us deafies and English language for all of hearies that combines both altogether as equal instead of many artificial languages that is too much gutterings.. So that way we can understand it better with our true language first then we can learn english if you allow us instead of pressuring those kids to hear with those devices that is the impression I m getting from that kind of audist attitude professional people who thinks they know it all about us even after all it failed for many years. So tell me why is that? It has nothing to do with those DEVICES.

It s our eye visualization that we can read and write from our eyes and use the creative thinking from our brains that works well. Also, ASL can help you to see the different way of explaination than having a spoken language from English language itself that is the problem we are having for years and years..

Also ASL is the most important for us to have it for communication too. Oral method is for spoken language so where is the emotions or voice tones that we will not see or hear the differences in many ways or have creative thinking.

Now who is to blame for this? Hearing people should know ASL before teaching or working with d/Deaf children. I dont feel that Teachers have the right to control or power over those d/Deaf children s true expression feelings. Does it makes sense to you? Thats two way street. Also I bet it will make a big difference.

Bi Bi language is equal to both of us.. There are a lot of people who studied many kind of foreign languages. So I do not believe they do not undrstand if they are willing to learn about ASL itself. then they will understand it better. There are many hearing people with openminds and good attitudes who made their own success with ASL already. No more excuses! Thanks!

Why force them to hear and orally speak alone that is still existing? It is not a two way street. I think I know why but I dont have to explain because I have said it aloud for a long time.. No excuses for you not to understand me from the start.

SEE is easy for hearing people to learn. However many people who want to learn ASL while they learn SEE instead that makes them not understand us deafies because someone who thinks they know it all about ASL and teach them very wrong ASL. That's why it screwed up and people are making money off of us. Is that fair to hearing people who want to learn ASL not SEE at first place?

Thank you! ;)
Sweetmind
 
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