If CI is a choice..

What about Deaf parents' choice in making their hearing children Deaf?

Nothing can justify either side when this question is brought up.

Hello Deaf258

In my opinion, I rather have waited to make their own decision instead say, "heck, I never asked for cochlear implant for myself as befit?!"

In common people insult parent of kid with cochlear as their mice lab or genie pig. If the kid wants to have cochlear implant, fine. If the kid doesn’t want cochlear implant then don’t do it.

My opinion, I disagree to have young kid have cochlear implant due develop or grow to height until the mature completed. The reason their cochlear implant is short or long? Does that require to re-surgery or operator after eighteen years old that not need operator anymore? The reason is bone that can root to other side of edge to cover the cochlear implant ability to crack the implantation?

Same the idea with heart implant is require to re-surgery or more than once operator. Until the kid is completed, then not need other operator for new heart implant.

Wasn't there a controversity last year or two years ago about a lesbian couple who wanted to have a deaf sperm donor, so that they could maximise the chance for their child to be deaf?

Either way, I wouldn't care if my child was deaf or hearing. I would love the child all the same and be involved 100% unlike some parents I know. What is important? Communication between the child and the parents.

I wonder if in the future, when ppl start genetically modifying their babies, would Deaf couples genetically modify their children so that they would be Deaf too? That would go against the protocols of genetic modification, but ofc I am sure that some Deafies would try.

Originally posted by Deaf258
What about Deaf parents' choice in making their hearing children Deaf?

Nothing can justify either side when this question is brought up.

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Making hearing children deaf? Ugh! That was phrased strangely. Mind if you could rephrase that? If my kids were already hearing, I wouldn't want them to be deaf. If my kids were already deaf, I wouldn't love them any less.. and teach them to love themselves as well. I won't have them thinking LESS of themselves just because they are deaf either. What's the problem?

If you mean by knowingly increasing the chances of deafness for children la fucking a deaf man or getting artifically inseminated by a deaf man, that is a very controversial area to get into.. but a very important one, I believe. SO, are you saying that the sperm containing the deaf gene doesn't deserve a chance at life?
How is the lesbian couple any different from any deaf couple that conceives deaf children anyway? Are the deaf couples as guilty as the lesbian couple? I believe Alexander G Bell thought so, and supported sterilization of deaf couples long ago.

We are not talking about stabbing a hearing child's ears with a pencil. Ugh. Don't know why people act as it seems that way, when the deaf gene is already IN the sperm. I would not destroy my child's hearing if he or she wasn't born deaf. That's insane and child ABUSE!!

:Oops: Forget what I just mention. I wasn't pay attention about hearing children become deaf. Forget me that one.

Originally posted by ideafspy
:Oops: Forget what I just mention. I wasn't pay attention about hearing children become deaf. Forget me that one.

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Andrew.. you're just too sweet! Do be careful of how sentences are worded, allright? Manipulation is possible if you don't read the fine print. I learned from my mistakes. I'm sure deaf2 didn't mean it that way, though.

Re: Re: If CI is a choice..

true we wouldnt make our hearing child DEAF but look at the hearing parents of DEAF child -- they have this done while the child is still a toddler and make them "hearing" come on!!!!!!!! they complain complain they want ppl like them with "perfect" everything and that would include the ability to be able to hear -- this one i disagree cuz the way i look at this -- a hearing parents who wants their Deaf child to be "hearing" and forces them to have to go thru surgeries for CI is child abuse same idea as Liza have said abt sticking a pencil in a hearing child's ear to get them deaf is child abuse -- i stand against CI period the deaf person that grew up and is able to research on this topic and is freely making his/her decision to have CI is fine cuz its THEMSELVES that makes the decision NOT their parents cuz its something that they will live with for the rest of their lives and they have that option for them to choose

as for that lesbian couple that wanted a deaf child and got that by way of getting deaf sperm -- at least this was done PRIOR to the child's conception after research and talking to their male friends -- so no i dont see it as a child abuse --

Re: Re: Re: If CI is a choice..

Originally posted by Fly Free
true we wouldnt make our hearing child DEAF but look at the hearing parents of DEAF child -- they have this done while the child is still a toddler and make them "hearing" come on!!!!!!!! they complain complain they want ppl like them with "perfect" everything and that would include the ability to be able to hear -- this one i disagree cuz the way i look at this -- a hearing parents who wants their Deaf child to be "hearing" and forces them to have to go thru surgeries for CI is child abuse same idea as Liza have said abt sticking a pencil in a hearing child's ear to get them deaf is child abuse -- i stand against CI period the deaf person that grew up and is able to research on this topic and is freely making his/her decision to have CI is fine cuz its THEMSELVES that makes the decision NOT their parents cuz its something that they will live with for the rest of their lives and they have that option for them to choose

as for that lesbian couple that wanted a deaf child and got that by way of getting deaf sperm -- at least this was done PRIOR to the child's conception after research and talking to their male friends -- so no i dont see it as a child abuse --

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Calling this child abuse shows absolutely no repect or compassion for children who actually get physically abused by adults.

They do not equate.

Kill this thread.

Cain, what's your beef with having a discussion like this? Freedom of speech. Eventually down the line, we'll learn something new. We won't learn anything until we air out everything.

Don't read this thread if you don't like it, and of course, let Alex know of your feelings and leave it up to him how to run things here. Otherwise, give a little more of your opinion and elaborate further on what you meant. Everyone has a right to their opinions. I do apologize if I have been out of line (to Alex and da mods). I am not even sure if some people got the gist of my posts either. Please do ask me to clarify my words. I won't bite.

Fly, what about the success stories of children who had CI operations done? I have noticed from previous posts in other forums that the parents work very, very hard to make this successful for their children. They love their kids very much. Who are we to judge them for their choices made based on love? It's no wonder why some pro-CI folks are so self defensive. They keep getting attacked, and their actions judged. I don't condone certain attitudes of superiority, however, and certain ideas about what "normal" is, and how things should function. We weren't born with instruction manuals, but with our hearts and soul.

I understand there is a degree of fear about loss of identity pertaining to CI. I do feel that fear is unfounded, since everybody is an individual and will always be unique in many ways. Nobody can define our individuality except ourselves.

When we lay down our swords, true unification can begin. What is better than using our diversity to empower each other?

Originally posted by Liza

Fly, what about the success stories of children who had CI operations done? I have noticed from previous posts in other forums that the parents work very, very hard to make this successful for their children. They love their kids very much. Who are we to judge them for their choices made based on love? It's no wonder why some pro-CI folks are so self defensive. They keep getting attacked, and their actions judged. I don't condone certain attitudes of superiority, however, and certain ideas about what "normal" is, and how things should function. We weren't born with instruction manuals, but with our hearts and soul.

When we lay down our swords, true unification can begin. What is better than using our diversity to empower each other?

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Liza ---- this decision based out of LOVE qq *thud* u gotta be kidding me Liza gurl -- ive not heard of THAT *many* success stories sowwy to say -- i have friends who themselves have CI and have made it ULTRA clear that they hate their CI and that they had it done while still a child (infant, toddler, pre-K and elementary age) and they have expressed to me their displeasure about their parents for having that done to them without THEM having gotten older to be involved in this huge decision that lasts a lifetime -- the way i look at it like u have said "empowerment" -- i agree to that but the empowerment of the deaf person on their OWN free will *and* clear informed decisions on their own -- not the parents when it comes to this issue of CI -- the parents can join the child (if still underaged but is old enough to make his/her own decision and is respected by the parents) in the research and learning of all options that ARE available not just for CI itself

Cain -- i still call this "child abuse" and i stand by that opinion and im free to have my opinions said like Liza said and i cite the first ammendment -- the right to free speech -- u are allowed to state what u would like to state -- it would not change my standing whatsoever in regards to CI and my opinion of it being "child abuse" when it is done to a child without the child's understanding of what CI is and what its all about -- inclusiveness NOT "noninclusiveness" -- look around urself Cain -- there are MANY Deaf parents who have HEARING children and they DONT say "i WANT my child to be DEAF" then go around *sticking pencils (or other objects) in the ears of the child* to make them Deaf!

LOL Flychickie!! I appreciate that you have taken the time to share your views. I enjoy reading yours, btw!!

Empowerment is my best friend, too.

I have read some CI materials online, and it does seem that a candidate for CI would have the best chances of success if the operation is done asap after deafness is diagnosed... hence the reason children get this operation at an early age. I do consider CI a tool for those who choose to use it. I know it doesn't cause loss of any unique identity or individuality. I respect the decision my father made to not let me have the CI option since he thought it was too experimental and risky at the time (in '83).

Before having done this research, I was against children having CI operations before coming of age altho I strongly support adults making that choice for themselves. It is not so black/white for me anymore... I am sure the decisions regarding children and CI are not made very lightly by parents. THEIR values and cultural perception will affect their decisions, because they do want to pass on their values into their children. It has always been done that way for eons and eons.

I do appreciate any input in this area! Who knows??

Re: Re: If CI is a choice..

Originally posted by Cain Marko
This idiocy of this question reflects on your own ignorance.

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Actually, I think you're the one who is being ignorant. I asked this question to make people think about CIs in a new light. I was trying to make a point that CIs should be a personal decision, not the parents' decision. In my opinion, it is still abuse to modify a child either way when he/she isn't aware of the decision making. Yes, I can say "child abuse" because I have been through it with speech therapy and hearing aids. I was forced to go to speech therapy for 3 to 4 hours everyday from when I was younger than a toddler until first grade. Then, it was speech therapy everyday for 1 to 3 hours at school. Not only I get speech therapy at school, I also had to do it at home, too! My dad always treated me badly because I take so much of his money for my doctor's appointments, new hearing aids, new batteries and most of my mom's time. My mom was too tired to give my dad any attention in the bedroom. Catch my drift?? CIs are EXPENSIVE!! Considering the abuse I was already getting from my dad, oh boy, my life would have been much, much worse if I had CIs. I am so glad my parents decided not to give me CIs. Speech therapy took away my time to learn social skills with other kids. It made me an outsider. That all changed when I learned ASL. For the first time, I felt like I could be myself and express myself. Like Fly Free said, what I felt was empowerment. I wish my parents learned ASL and we would have been able to communicate and understand each other better. Sure, hearing aids and speech therapy helped me to be able to talk to hearing people and it is for their benefit. Without ASL, I am left out of the loop too often. Where is my benefit?

Originally posted by ideafspy

My opinion, I disagree to have young kid have cochlear implant due develop or grow to height until the mature completed. The reason their cochlear implant is short or long? Does that require to re-surgery or operator after eighteen years old that not need operator anymore? The reason is bone that can root to other side of edge to cover the cochlear implant ability to crack the implantation?

Same the idea with heart implant is require to re-surgery or more than once operator. Until the kid is completed, then not need other operator for new heart implant.

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when a baby is born, their cochlear is already at adult stage.. it don't grow any further.. actually it matured just before a child is birthed.. the internal device can stay seated in the bone as long as the child lives.. the device can last longer than 10 yrs.. the internal device is about the size of a quarter!

the insulated wire and electrode are inserted into cochlear and is not "taut" it has some slack... so that means the child can have that implant as long as the child ages.. even up to old ages..

as for heart implant it is entirely different.. because the human heart does not mature early. it grow as child mature.. so their cochlear don't need to mature any further.. it is already at adult size.. that's reason why child can hear at first sound after birth.. actually baby hear the sounds while in the womb near at end of terms.. you notice they tends to talk or sing to theirs thru out the terms.

no additional surgery is required only if to replace the outdated device like 20 yrs later.. with a newer device.. or better technology comes out like "totally implantable ci" (100% internal w/o BTE)


check those urls regarding cochlear developement...
http://www.iurc.montp.inserm.fr/cric/audition/english/ptw/ptwplas/ptwplas.htm

and
http://www.iurc.montp.inserm.fr/cric/audition/english/corti/codev/fcodev.htm

after relfecting and reading this thread i have a mind of my own to mention, U stick a pencil or anyting in my own kids ears and all HELL will break loose, I consider what fly free and liza has said an and support the argument 100%
Cain, after seeing what u have said maybe u should stick ur pencil in your ear and see how u feel about that the pain and the searing buring u will feel! think twice before u mention what u say. cuz that is an all out ingorancy u have said in consideration of a role reversal! Deaf parents wanting deaf kids thats higly likly but if the child is born hearing thats understandable but consider this they maybe considered to interpet for thier parents and or sibliings so they are already immersed in the deaf community! For the life of me im appalled at the thought of hearing children getting the abuse!

Re: Re: Re: Re: If CI is a choice..

Huh?? No comments to my post, Cain Marko??

Very interesting...if deaf people make their hearing children deaf, is that abuse?

I am bringing this back from the grave...

I thought this was an interesting question..if hearing people can put their children thru surgery so their children can hear, why is it wrong for deaf people to put their hearing children through surgery to make them deaf. I am just playing devil's advocate...pls do not take me literally cuz I wouldnt do that but just think about it for a min and share your thoughts on this one..

When phrased in that way, it would seem to be a choice that should be afforded.

Because one involves the removal of a sense for purely cultural reasons, whereas the other involves artificial access to a previously absent sense for some additional practical value?

At least that's how I see it. I see the CI as being very useful.

R2D2 said:

Because one involves the removal of a sense for purely cultural reasons, whereas the other involves artificial access to a previously absent sense for some additional practical value?

At least that's how I see it. I see the CI as being very useful.

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Well, yes, but it also involves an assumption of normalcy based on hearing standards and medical definition of pathology. To the Deaf, lack of sound is normal, and even beneficial. Removal or restoration...it is still an articficially created situation. This is not a statement of my support one way or the other. Just an illustration that there are different pespectives.

R2D2 said:

Because one involves the removal of a sense for purely cultural reasons, whereas the other involves artificial access to a previously absent sense for some additional practical value?

At least that's how I see it. I see the CI as being very useful.

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My point is that maybe it can help the hearing parents understand why many culturally Deaf people see putting deaf children through surgery for the sake of being able to "hear" as abusive. If I were to post a thread saying that I am going to put my hearing children through surgery to make them deaf, u bet that I will be called an abusive parent. Instead of getting mad at Deaf people or calling them ignorant whenever they feel that it is abusive, try to see it from their point of view. Put themselves in their shoes...if it was the other way around...if this Earth was Eyeth, and being hearing is a disability, and Deaf people were trying to fix this disability by making their disabled child to fit the majority of the population which would be deaf?

Just theoritically thinking...again, anyone, pls do not take me literally but it did make me think outside of the box...