Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

There is a concern that should be in the open to the Deaf community abroad. That is, It is a challenge to express ourselves to hearing people, without becoming like them. Like some women becomes bosses by acting more paternal than men do at average. I simply don't want to become as stupid as hearing people.

DISCUSS

Well, Grum, I think basically what this would be is a difference between integration into majority society and assimilation into majority society. One can integrate and retain all of their own values, beliefs, and language. One cannot assimilate and do so, however. In order to assimilate, one has to let go of that which defines them and embrace and adopt that which defines everyone else.

pondering... good start Jill...

Grummer: you don't want to become as stupid as hearing people? That is interesting "deaf people can transform into hearing people" thus possible to become "stupid". Do I understand you correctly?

Since when has "intelligence" been co-related to "deafness"?

Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

drphil said:

Grummer: you don't want to become as stupid as hearing people? That is interesting "deaf people can transform into hearing people" thus possible to become "stupid". Do I understand you correctly?

Since when has "intelligence" been co-related to "deafness"?

Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

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Where did Grum say that "deaf people could transform into hearing people"? That is a false claim that belongs to the CI industry.

Stupidity very often has nothing to do with intelligence.

jillio said:

Where did Grum say that "deaf people could transform into hearing people"? That is a false claim that belongs to the CI industry.

Stupidity very often has nothing to do with intelligence.

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It's the title of the thread.

Bottesini said:

It's the title of the thread.

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(H)earing as opposed to (h)earing. Just as (D)eaf includes a way of thinking that (d)eaf doesn't, so can the same be applied to hearing cultural standards.

I think Grummer was referring to "hearing think" in the title, and thus the use of the capital (H). Around here, it is also known as audist, lol.

I'm just working on my comprehension of all these questions but I think that even if you wanted to, you just can't become hearing. If you are Deaf, or born deaf, you think in a different way. It's so clear in kids (yes, even CI stars) when you interact with them... Thoughts follow different paths. So I think you have nothing to worry about

The thing I do believe in (call me a dreamer) is being able to share our being part of Humanity. Differences are enrichments, because we are all part of a whole and we can share each other's knowledge. If both hearing and Deaf people would accept Sign Language as a patrimony of the whole Human Race and not only a "tool for who has a deficit" we would all gain soooo much... But times are maybe still not mature for this. Or maybe I just should sleep more at night, or my thoughts will become too strange

basically i dont want to be stupid enough to want to be a parrot which is exactly what the ignorant Hearing people wants. Verbalising as a 'clever parrot' is seen as success to speak/hear but Hearing soon forget the troubles a d/Deaf person go through, and then that 'deaf person has just became another person who happens to have limit hearing (with HA) and slightly (or more) distorted speech , they deaf person become seen as just another, then its gets repetitive then boring then not taken notice of. Which is does have consequences for the d/Deaf person in question the lack of status, lack of attractiveness' lack of future/finance power all drags down the life chance to the floor...

i have no idea if this analogy is a good one or a bad one, but all it is is an attempt to say what i meant be stupid as hearing people. its got nothing to do with 'intelligence'. It more to do with 'comformity' and the lack of appreciation which also brings unhappiness to d/Deaf persons because its not real. Just as high clothings fashion art is not real, and useful clothes that goes on the street market are warmer, fits better for real life us. Although everyone take notice of it intially but soon forget the realness of the neccessity.

Hohtopics said:

In fairness to drphil, I'm another that thought the title meant "becoming an hearing person". And that it possibly had something to do with some of the scientific or technological developments out there.

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NO, thats not a fairness at all, we all know its very dominant, in this thread we wish to discuss the ramifications of assimilation, in other word, a critique of this matter in as a group discussion, not to be flamed by those who support CI, or otherwise, we have already abundent of 'their threads' so back off.

No sweat, I already commented out that post. I simply misunderstood the title of the thread. Sorry.

jillio said:

"deaf people could transform into hearing people"? That is a false claim that belongs to the CI industry.

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and hearing aid,AVT industries

here is how AVT differs from oral

This approach is similar to the auditory-oral approach except it does not encourage lipreading.
It excludes the use of sign language.
This method emphasizes the exclusive use of auditory skills through one-on-one teaching.
It emphasizes the importance of placing children in the regular education classroom as soon as possible.

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I hate avt but english skills are needed because not many people live mayths vineyard type environment

jillio said:

Stupidity very often has nothing to do with intelligence.

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I no someone with a high IQ and low mentality

jillio said:

I think Grummer was referring to "hearing think" in the title, and thus the use of the capital (H). Around here, it is also known as audist, lol.

Click to expand...

Grummer said:

basically i dont want to be stupid enough to want to be a parrot which is exactly what the ignorant Hearing people wants. Verbalising as a 'clever parrot' is seen as success to speak/hear but Hearing soon forget the troubles a d/Deaf person go through, and then that 'deaf person has just became another person who happens to have limit hearing (with HA) and slightly (or more) distorted speech , they deaf person become seen as just another, then its gets repetitive then boring then not taken notice of. Which is does have consequences for the d/Deaf person in question the lack of status, lack of attractiveness' lack of future/finance power all drags down the life chance to the floor...

It more to do with 'comformity' and the lack of appreciation which also brings unhappiness to d/Deaf persons because its not real.

Click to expand...

By using subtitles,VCO and other accommodations if signing/pen and paper is not possible

Grummer said:

NO, thats not a fairness at all, we all know its very dominant, in this thread we wish to discuss the ramifications of assimilation, in other word, a critique of this matter in as a group discussion, not to be flamed by those who support CI, or otherwise, we have already abundent of 'their threads' so back off.

Click to expand...

Those that are pro HEARING ideas and valves shouldnt post in Deaf culture unless they want to learn and NOT argue that HEARING ideas and valves are better than DEAF ideas and valves

drphil said:

Grummer: you don't want to become as stupid as hearing people? That is interesting "deaf people can transform into hearing people" thus possible to become "stupid". Do I understand you correctly?

Since when has "intelligence" been co-related to "deafness"?

Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

Click to expand...

jillio said:

Where did Grum say that "deaf people could transform into hearing people"? That is a false claim that belongs to the CI industry.

Stupidity very often has nothing to do with intelligence.

Click to expand...

inmate23 said:

and hearing aid,AVT industries

here is how AVT differs from oral


I hate avt but english skills are needed because not many people live mayths vineyard type environment





I no someone with a high IQ and low mentality





By using subtitles,VCO and other accommodations if signing/pen and paper is not possible




Those that are pro HEARING ideas and valves shouldnt post in Deaf culture unless they want to learn and NOT argue that HEARING ideas and valves are better than DEAF ideas and valves

Click to expand...

"Stupidity" and "Intelligence" is more of a cultural definition than a brain function.

For instance in the hearing world - "Time is money" - "First business then pleasure" - "You don't go to work to make friends because you can always have friends at home" (if you want to be bothered with them) - "A friend is somebody with their hand in your pocket looking for your spare change".

In the Native American Culture I was raised around - "Time is a trap invented by the whiteman to enslave himself" - "Enjoy whatever you are doing" - "Friends are people you enjoy being with no matter what you are doing." - "A friend is somebody you enjoy being around."

In the Deaf Culture I was exposed to as a child - "Time is life. Don't waste it chasing after things you don't need." - "Enjoy yourself as much as you can" - "Friends are where you find them." - "A friend is somebody you lean on and who leans on you."

It should not be difficult to see how what is stupid to one group makes perfect sense to the other.

To a hearing person it is stupid for a Deaf person to travel two hours to visit friends and then stay late when there is no chance of getting any money, promotion, or any other monetary advantage from it. It is equally stupid for a Native American Indian to lay on his back for two hours looking at clouds. That is what children do - And they would be better off doing homework rather than wasting their time.

The biggest problem with the white hearing culture is they find it extremely difficult to understand any other cultural viewpoint other than their own or to even accept that one exists.

So I would say the OP's saying " I simply don't want to become as stupid as hearing people." means they do not want to absorb the cultural values of Standard American Hearing culture --

Which appears stupid, greedy, cruel, and self defeating, to other cultures.

quote from Berry as part of his longer answer:
"The biggest problem with the white hearing culture is they find it extremely difficult to understand any other cultural viewpoint other than their own or to even accept that one exists."
-endquote

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE with that!

Berry I enjoyed your whole post but the above really struck me. I have been raised in multi-cultural environments and been exposed to a wide variety of things, also gone to university in a small town very homogeneous and wow, was that an education beyond the university....

at the pow wows I have been to, ceremony starts "when it's right", "when it begins" "soon" .....stories tell you about life, stories are history....

in traditional Anglo society, stories are for children and of limited definition....


assimilation is based on an un-equal starting point where the context of the 'larger" or majority framework is the considered ideal to which the participants are implied, urged or forced to mesh into

integration is based on an equal point where traits, norms, values and so on are not judged but all held together as strong points in themselves which come together in balance

"White hearing culture"? aren't we missing a "few folks"? Is "deaf culture" structured into this manner? Why not discussed previously if relevant?

I understand there is a "relationship" between "intelligence" and "stupidity" but doesn't that seem to replicate into "deaf culture"?

More discussion into Sociology-culture?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

Grummer said:

basically i dont want to be stupid enough to want to be a parrot which is exactly what the ignorant Hearing people wants. Verbalising as a 'clever parrot' is seen as success to speak/hear but Hearing soon forget the troubles a d/Deaf person go through, and then that 'deaf person has just became another person who happens to have limit hearing (with HA) and slightly (or more) distorted speech , they deaf person become seen as just another, then its gets repetitive then boring then not taken notice of. Which is does have consequences for the d/Deaf person in question the lack of status, lack of attractiveness' lack of future/finance power all drags down the life chance to the floor...

i have no idea if this analogy is a good one or a bad one, but all it is is an attempt to say what i meant be stupid as hearing people. its got nothing to do with 'intelligence'. It more to do with 'comformity' and the lack of appreciation which also brings unhappiness to d/Deaf persons because its not real. Just as high clothings fashion art is not real, and useful clothes that goes on the street market are warmer, fits better for real life us. Although everyone take notice of it intially but soon forget the realness of the neccessity.

Click to expand...

It seems to be that you are talking about appearances. As long as one "appears" to be very much the same as the majority, the majority is more likely to tolerate their existence, and provide them with a very superficial form of "acceptance." Unfortunately, as we have seen over the centuries with the Deaf individual, and in other cultures as well, the person is lost in the process and the individual becomes no more important than their appearance.

We saw the same thing happen with the Native Americans. Strip them of their language, civilize them according to someone else's standards, and make them appear members of the mainstream. Then, we will accept them. But what has happened to the individuals in that process, and what negative impact has it had on their culture that is meant to sustain the individual?

Same thing with Blacks in this country. Same thing with each and every immigrant in this country.

Berry said:

"Stupidity" and "Intelligence" is more of a cultural definition than a brain function.

For instance in the hearing world - "Time is money" - "First business then pleasure" - "You don't go to work to make friends because you can always have friends at home" (if you want to be bothered with them) - "A friend is somebody with their hand in your pocket looking for your spare change".

In the Native American Culture I was raised around - "Time is a trap invented by the whiteman to enslave himself" - "Enjoy whatever you are doing" - "Friends are people you enjoy being with no matter what you are doing." - "A friend is somebody you enjoy being around."

In the Deaf Culture I was exposed to as a child - "Time is life. Don't waste it chasing after things you don't need." - "Enjoy yourself as much as you can" - "Friends are where you find them." - "A friend is somebody you lean on and who leans on you."

It should not be difficult to see how what is stupid to one group makes perfect sense to the other.

To a hearing person it is stupid for a Deaf person to travel two hours to visit friends and then stay late when there is no chance of getting any money, promotion, or any other monetary advantage from it. It is equally stupid for a Native American Indian to lay on his back for two hours looking at clouds. That is what children do - And they would be better off doing homework rather than wasting their time.

The biggest problem with the white hearing culture is they find it extremely difficult to understand any other cultural viewpoint other than their own or to even accept that one exists.

So I would say the OP's saying " I simply don't want to become as stupid as hearing people." means they do not want to absorb the cultural values of Standard American Hearing culture --

Which appears stupid, greedy, cruel, and self defeating, to other cultures.

Click to expand...

In your hearing world paragraph: a very concise description of the white American Protestant ethic.

And you are so correct. Members of white hearing culture are extremely ethnocentric. And to support such, paternalistic.

messymama said:

I'm just working on my comprehension of all these questions but I think that even if you wanted to, you just can't become hearing. If you are Deaf, or born deaf, you think in a different way. It's so clear in kids (yes, even CI stars) when you interact with them... Thoughts follow different paths. So I think you have nothing to worry about

The thing I do believe in (call me a dreamer) is being able to share our being part of Humanity. Differences are enrichments, because we are all part of a whole and we can share each other's knowledge. If both hearing and Deaf people would accept Sign Language as a patrimony of the whole Human Race and not only a "tool for who has a deficit" we would all gain soooo much... But times are maybe still not mature for this. Or maybe I just should sleep more at night, or my thoughts will become too strange

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to me, it would be never too strange. You want strange? try reading about Death and dying.. I am reading Lots of those, and for many visitors dropping in get freaked when they see 20+ Death books on the floor, coffee table, kitchen table...LOL

but when they start talking to me, its seem nothing too strange (I self-censor it for the sake of keeping conversations short)...

also, 'talking about ' i wanna be Deaf not hearing' in here would seem strange to Pro-HA, Pro-CI or curious visitor but we all know its NOT strange, But it does seem to get weirder and weirder as they read in deeper WHiLE for us, it gets Clearer and CLEARER because we all are putting all the intellectual/life experiences cards on the table to really see WHAT IS AUDISM.....so dont be afraid to ask, or dare say 'I wonder if this or that, would this be or could this be a way to heightening public awareness (in a true manner) than just Deaf Culture... Deaf culture is Great, im involved but for a long time it has be made 'cute' im sick of it, we need Better and more powerful ways to really say What it is and WHY it existed and WHY we like it, WHY it is appropriate and WHY mainstream view (audists') is dangerous and inappropriate...

Grummer said:

to me, it would be never too strange. You want strange? try reading about Death and dying.. I am reading Lots of those, and for many visitors dropping in get freaked when they see 20+ Death books on the floor, coffee table, kitchen table...LOL

but when they start talking to me, its seem nothing too strange (I self-censor it for the sake of keeping conversations short)...

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Death and dying is a topic that is uncomfortable for most...no one wants to face their own mortality.