About this Deaf Culture thing...

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jillio

jillio

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This is something that I have noticed a few times before and wondered about, but never started a thread to discuss it because it always seems to fade into the sunset after a short time. Just recently, though, the same thing seems to be happening, and it is hanging on this time. So, I've got some observations and some questions.

I'll start my explanation with a "for instance" situation. Now, I am browsing around the internet, and I see a site that I think might be interesting and something I would like to participate in. I visit the site and check it out just to see what it's all about. I discover that the majority of the people that belong to that particular site have very different views about that topic and don't share my values at all. Do I join that site? Do I then spend hours of my time telling them that their beliefs and their values are just plain silly and make no sense? Do I reinterate over and over that I have no desire to be a part of their group? Nope to all of the above. I simply leave the site and don't return.

But around here, it appears that we have people joining for no other reason that to tell us over and over and over again that they have no desire to be a part of the Deaf community, that their values and their beliefs about deafness are polar opposites of what the majority of this community represents, that our ideas about Deaf Culture are figments of our imagination. And they don't say it once. They keep coming back and saying the same things over and over and over.

Incongruency. Words and actions do not match up. If one has no desire to be a part of a group that largely represents the Deaf Community, why in the world to they take the time to register and members, and then spend their valuable time reading and posting here? If one believes that the very concept of Deaf Culture in not valid, why join a forum called AllDEAF, and waste their time reading and posting in threads devoted to the topic of culture? If one has never been a part of the Deaf Community, feels their live is complete without ever being a part of a Deaf Community, and feels that the values held by that Deaf Community are something they could never embrace, what the heck are they doing hanging around an online Deaf Community? Incongruency.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love it when people come in and say things like, "I don't know anything about Deaf Culture, but I have been reading some of the posts here, and think it is something I would like to investigate and learn more about." Even if, after a while, they decide that it really is not for them, they have at least stayed around long enough to learn and develop respect for the culture. Not for you, okay. Nice to have met you, and maybe we'll see you somewhere else sometime. No biggie.

But what bothers me, and I suspect bothers a lot of you, is those that come in and don't know anything about the culture, don't attempt to learn anything about the culture, don't have any desire to become a part of the community that embraces the culture, and feel the need to tell us that over and over and over. Why? We saw what you said the first time. You don't want to be a part of Deaf Culture. We get it. No need to repeat it. See you down the line.

My take on this is: these individuals that so vehemently protest the need for Deaf Culture, the validity of Deaf Culture, and the value of Deaf Culture are trying harder to convince themselves what they say is true than they are us. There was some sort of an interest in being in communication with other deaf people or they would never have visited a site devoted to deafness. If they truly did not want to be a part of a group that represents the Deaf, by majority of the membership, they would simply leave and go their merry way. But they don't. Incongruency.

I think it is very likely that they are simply unable to be honest with themselves, and use this site as a way to try to convince themselves that their lives are all rosy and they do not now, nor have they ever, needed the company and friendship of other deaf people. They have devoted their lives to making every effort and working hard to fit in with the hearing people they surround themselves with. If they were to admit that they had even a small thing in common with the Deaf perspective, they fear that all their hard work at fitting in was for nothing, and they have wasted all that effort.

They are not lying to us consciously or intentionally. They are, however, being dishonest with themselves, and as a result, being dishonest with us. How much easier it would be for them, and for us, if they would just get honest, and say, "Hey, I'd like to be part of a community of the deaf, but I just don't know how to go about it. You know, those ideas are really foreign to me, because my whole life has been spent with hearing people, but let me think about this some. Maybe I'll agree, and maybe I won't, but it's worth thinking about."

What do you guys think? Do you see the words and the actions being totally unmatched in these cases? Do you get the feeling that they are trying to convince themselves that they don't need the deaf community more than they are trying to convince us? Do you see the fear of having to admit that maybe, just maybe, they have been wrong about some things?

Let's discuss. No defensiveness, no nastiness, no insulting the culture. We are adults...we should be able to have a productive discussion without all of the above.
 
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Yes, I think they have fear. And I think they really want to be a part of a group like themselves.

I think it is fear of not being accepted. So in effect saying, "Just in case you don't like me, I didn't like you first."

And when they come here if they were the single solitary deaf person they knew, it is overwhelmingly different.

Not only do the not relate to Deaf culture, and ASL, they write differently and often don't know what was said.

Of course that goes both ways, and I hope I answered your original post with the correct idea in mind.
 
I know for myself with some saying that I have embraced the Deaf Community only by what has been posted here on this forum. It is true that I have not had much interaction with the Deaf community in person, but I have made every effort I can to do so wherever the opportunity arises. Since my introduction to AllDeaf almost 2 years ago, I have discovered people who have had almost identical experiences to my own. For most of my life, I was told that I needed to 'fit' into the hearing world, to become as hearing as possible, and 'pretend' I was hearing when I wasn't. Finally, I realised that it was ok to be who I really was. I no longer need to 'hide' it or to feel ashamed of it. I had come 'home' to a community that accepts me for who I am. I understand the Deaf culture because it has always been a part of me, I was BORN deaf, but it was previously submerged because I did not know otherwise. Now, that I have been awakened to the existance of Deaf culture and the Deaf community, I am happy that I have been warmly welcomed. Thank you AllDeaf. :ty:
 
Bottesini said:
Yes, I think they have fear. And I think they really want to be a part of a group like themselves.

I think it is fear of not being accepted. So in effect saying, "Just in case you don't like me, I didn't like you first."

And when they come here if they were the single solitary deaf person they knew, it is overwhelmingly different.

Not only do the not relate to Deaf culture, and ASL, they write differently and often don't know what was said.

Of course that goes both ways, and I hope I answered your original post with the correct idea in mind.
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Absolutely. And I like your point: reject before you can be rejected. That may very well be a large part of it.:hmm:
 
BecLak said:
I know for myself with some saying that I have embraced the Deaf Community only by what has been posted here on this forum. It is true that I have not had much interaction with the Deaf community in person, but I have made every effort I can to do so wherever the opportunity arises. Since my introduction to AllDeaf almost 2 years ago, I have discovered people who have had almost identical experiences to my own. For most of my life, I was told that I needed to 'fit' into the hearing world, to become as hearing as possible, and 'pretend' I was hearing when I wasn't. Finally, I realised that it was ok to be who I really was. I no longer need to 'hide' it or to feel ashamed of it. I had come 'home' to a community that accepts me for who I am. I understand the Deaf culture because it has always been a part of me, I was BORN deaf, but it was previously submerged because I did not know otherwise. Now, that I have been awakened to the existance of Deaf culture and the Deaf community, I am happy that I have been warmly welcomed. Thank you AllDeaf. :ty:
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Exactly. AllDeaf is one of the few places where deaf can go without ever having to leave home and find that commonality of experience, understanding without explanation, and acceptance just as you are. That is what makes it such a wonderful site, and why so many find it so supportive. Especially those like you that don't have easy access to in person deaf communities. That is one of the reasons that it truly bothers me when someone insists on pointing out how they are so different from the Deaf here, rather than looking for those commonalities. Even the late deafened have found similarities when they take the time to look for them.
 
Interesting post.

I will add that I see people like this not only here, but everywhere in life. My thoughts are that they don't know how to pick their battles appropriately. Why they do this stems not only from dishonesty with themselves, but also from a need to feel "smarter' then others.

Being dishonest with oneself isn't their only issue. I think there is also an inferiority complex at work. They attempt to prop their esteem up by trying to prove they are smarter or better than other group of people they know very little about. But they don't have the background to support anything they say.
 
Glenn said:
Interesting post.

I will add that I see people like this not only here, but everywhere in life. My thoughts are that they don't know how to pick their battles appropriately. Why they do this stems not only from dishonesty with themselves, but also from a need to feel "smarter' then others.

Being dishonest with oneself isn't their only issue. I think there is also an inferiority complex at work. They attempt to prop their esteem up by trying to prove they are smarter or better than other group of people they know very little about. But they don't have the background to support anything they say.
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Good points. And I agree...you will see this other places, as well. I think anytime anyone is dishonest with themselves it stems from a fear that they will appear to be inferior if their true selves were portrayed. But the best place to disprove that way of thinking is in a group of people that can offer you support and understanding from a personal perspective. It is a shame that some just won't allow themselves to take advantage of that opportunity.
 
I can understand how someone raised in standard white hearing culture can go into shock when introduced into Deaf Culture. Especially late deafened who were neither born into it nor have an affinity for it. They are both angry and resentful at a culture that rejects them, a culture whose values they hold so deeply they are not even aware of them: and angry at a culture that won't open up instantly and let them in. A culture whose values are obscure and hard to understand to someone not in harmony with them.

They see ASL and hear about ASL and think this is the key to Deaf Culture -- They have no idea how quickly Deaf people disappear when "Attitude yuck" is spotted. And I swear it is impossible to piss off one Deaf person without pissing off half the Deaf community.

And vice versa. My daughter is a terp. She has had people come up to her and say, "I read something your dad wrote on AllDeaf." I have had strangers come up to me and sign/say "I know you. You are Bobbie's dad."

If you are interested in Deaf and Deaf Culture I would say, "Don't worry about your degree of Deafness. Do work to improve your ASL skills but don't worry about how skilled you currently are. Most importantly -- Work on your attitude. Start with respect. Respect Deaf. Respect ASL. Respect Deaf Culture (Even if you don't understand it or know what it is.)
 
Berry said:
I can understand how someone raised in standard white hearing culture can go into shock when introduced into Deaf Culture. Especially late deafened who were neither born into it nor have an affinity for it. They are both angry and resentful at a culture that rejects them, a culture whose values they hold so deeply they are not even aware of them: and angry at a culture that won't open up instantly and let them in. A culture whose values are obscure and hard to understand to someone not in harmony with them.

They see ASL and hear about ASL and think this is the key to Deaf Culture -- They have no idea how quickly Deaf people disappear when "Attitude yuck" is spotted. And I swear it is impossible to piss off one Deaf person without pissing off half the Deaf community.

And vice versa. My daughter is a terp. She has had people come up to her and say, "I read something your dad wrote on AllDeaf." I have had strangers come up to me and sign/say "I know you. You are Bobbie's dad."

If you are interested in Deaf and Deaf Culture I would say, "Don't worry about your degree of Deafness. Do work to improve your ASL skills but don't worry about how skilled you currently are. Most importantly -- Work on your attitude. Start with respect. Respect Deaf. Respect ASL. Respect Deaf Culture (Even if you don't understand it or know what it is.)
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That, wise man, is the key.
 
BecLak said:
I know for myself with some saying that I have embraced the Deaf Community only by what has been posted here on this forum. It is true that I have not had much interaction with the Deaf community in person, but I have made every effort I can to do so wherever the opportunity arises. Since my introduction to AllDeaf almost 2 years ago, I have discovered people who have had almost identical experiences to my own. For most of my life, I was told that I needed to 'fit' into the hearing world, to become as hearing as possible, and 'pretend' I was hearing when I wasn't. Finally, I realised that it was ok to be who I really was. I no longer need to 'hide' it or to feel ashamed of it. I had come 'home' to a community that accepts me for who I am. I understand the Deaf culture because it has always been a part of me, I was BORN deaf, but it was previously submerged because I did not know otherwise. Now, that I have been awakened to the existance of Deaf culture and the Deaf community, I am happy that I have been warmly welcomed. Thank you AllDeaf. :ty:
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The bolded is a perfect example of why you are here. And I can identify with much of that. And we love having you here.

I'm still speechless at what another poster accused you of the other day -- that your determination/decision to fit in more with the deaf and not use speech "just because you have to" was ALL ONLY because of this forum.
 
BecLak said:
I know for myself with some saying that I have embraced the Deaf Community only by what has been posted here on this forum. It is true that I have not had much interaction with the Deaf community in person, but I have made every effort I can to do so wherever the opportunity arises. Since my introduction to AllDeaf almost 2 years ago, I have discovered people who have had almost identical experiences to my own. For most of my life, I was told that I needed to 'fit' into the hearing world, to become as hearing as possible, and 'pretend' I was hearing when I wasn't. Finally, I realised that it was ok to be who I really was. I no longer need to 'hide' it or to feel ashamed of it. I had come 'home' to a community that accepts me for who I am. I understand the Deaf culture because it has always been a part of me, I was BORN deaf, but it was previously submerged because I did not know otherwise. Now, that I have been awakened to the existance of Deaf culture and the Deaf community, I am happy that I have been warmly welcomed. Thank you AllDeaf. :ty:
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AlleyCat said:
The bolded is a perfect example of why you are here. And I can identify with much of that. And we love having you here.

I'm still speechless at what another poster accused you of the other day -- that your determination/decision to fit in more with the deaf and not use speech "just because you have to" was ALL ONLY because of this forum.
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The bolded part, and AlleyCat's response is what I try to get across to hearing parents of Deaf children who do not learn sign language and who try to push hearing culture onto their children.

Unfortunately I am seldom successful.
 
It puzzles me that they would come here wanting to connect with other deaf/hoh people like them but dont want anything to do with Deaf culture which is fine. Plenty of people here on AD who are not interested in Deaf culture and ASL whom they can connect with. What puzzles me is the behavior and arguments against Deaf culture or ASL. Why the need to do that? If you are not interested in being part of the culture nor learning ASL, fine but dont belittle or support those who belittle Deaf culture and ASL.
 
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AlleyCat said:
The bolded is a perfect example of why you are here. And I can identify with much of that. And we love having you here.

I'm still speechless at what another poster accused you of the other day -- that your determination/decision to fit in more with the deaf and not use speech "just because you have to" was ALL ONLY because of this forum.[/QUOTE]

I know. I was like "Who the f*** cares" if Beklack wants to identify herself as Deaf because of this forum. We all take our journeys to the Deaf world using different paths.
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Like BekLak, I knew nothing about Deaf Culture and such before joining AllDeaf. I have learned so much since becoming a member here that it's like I have a family that knows what I am going through.

And, with that, in every family there are a few "bad apples", but for the most part, we are able to just ignore them at the family gatherings and not have to "listen" or deaf with their rhetoric about out "identity" or what-have-you. This business of having most everything thing we have dealt with for most all of our lives thrown back at us with the attitude of "you're wrong, it isn't that way" or "times have changed" is getting on my nerves. I do not think it's right that people can come on here and totally try to invalidate what we went through. We all struggled one way or another, those born severely or profoundly deaf, those born with a mild loss, those born full hearing and lose it later in life and those who are the parents of deaf children. We all have struggles and it's not right for someone who is faced with the same problems tell us that we are wrong for feeling the way we do.

Right now, I am DEAF and proud of it. Yes, it is a struggle at times, but I am proud to be able to educate others in this journey of mine. Everyone needs to realize that it is a journey and only you can determine how your journey will go. You can have a pleasant journey learning and adapting as you go along, or you can fight every step of the way and have a nightmarish journey and want to blame others for it. Man up and accept the challenges and make your journey count for something in the long run. Be aware that you are teaching others around you at the same time and if you fight and demoralize constantly along the journey, you are teaching others that that's how it really is and that life is nothing but a struggle. If you accept and learn and adapt, others will learn that from you and the world will be a better place for all.

My two cents.
 
Berry said:
The bolded part, and AlleyCat's response is what I try to get across to hearing parents of Deaf children who do not learn sign language and who try to push hearing culture onto their children.

Unfortunately I am seldom successful.
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The way I see it: if you have one success, then the time has been well spent, despite the low rates. That is what keeps me going.
 
I don't have much to add, except that the anger you see from those who shrilly defend their views on CI's are because they are faced with the truth, and it is not to their liking. I sympathize with them, mostly with humor and gentle ribbing, but cannot for the life of me empathize with them. It is heartening, though, so see some members of this forum change, and that is why I keep coming back.
 
Beowulf said:
I don't have much to add, except that the anger you see from those who shrilly defend their views on CI's are because they are faced with the truth, and it is not to their liking. I sympathize with them, mostly with humor and gentle ribbing, but cannot for the life of me empathize with them. It is heartening, though, so see some members of this forum change, and that is why I keep coming back.
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Agreed. When you see someone get it, and become happier and more comfortable with themselves and others, it does a heart good.
 
Beowulf said:
I don't have much to add, except that the anger you see from those who shrilly defend their views on CI's are because they are faced with the truth, and it is not to their liking. I sympathize with them, mostly with humor and gentle ribbing, but cannot for the life of me empathize with them. It is heartening, though, so see some members of this forum change, and that is why I keep coming back.
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I agree wholeheartedly. And much as I might personally disagree and like to change their minds, I know it's not my place to do so, and I respect those views.
 
Yes, Jillo. I totally agree. Like everyone mentioned, why bother to join alldeaf and try to destroy themselve in the first place over someone else who easily accept for who they are and they are okay with it.
 
I agree with most said.

I don't see point of some of members to join the forum and only to argue against us. Makes me think what their real life must be like if they spend so much time and effort on here arguing against us. Must be sad life.
 
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