Very Interesting...a simulation of normal hearing vs. 24 channel CI simulation

Interesting and encouraging for us CI'ers whole wanted to know how it compares to normal hearing.

Of course, this is pertains to speech not all around hearing.
 
A very interesting link...

At least for those who are hearing who wish to know how folks hear with Cochlear Implants.

Cochlear Implant Center at University of California Irvine


Whoa. That's actually kinda cool! :thumb:

FYI,

I was born with normal hearing, so I can hear the difference between sound generated by a CI and sounds a hearing person hears normally. The CI generated sounds are predictably very electronic, but pretty clear, nonetheless.

That was super cool! Thanks for sharing! :)
 
The normal hearing sounds way better. Rich, smooth and fluid. The CI sounds scratchy, staticity and bassy.
 
Do all CI users hear speech like the simulation? Different models don't produce different sound?
 
I have asked dozens of CI users if they think it is an appropriate sample of what they hear (ie if it sounds normal to them), they have ALL told me no, that it sounds weird and robotic. They say that they hear that it is very different from the normal hearing.
 
That's really interesting. Especially since the people with CI's say that it's not an accurate sampling. I do wonder what the people say when they transition from HA's to CI's. I understand that some people with CI's hear better than HA's, but I don't know what it means, especially when comparing 30,000 hairs to 28 electrodes. Do sounds appear the same? Distorted any? Is the full range of music still appealing or does one get portions here and there?

For example, with HA's, I have whatever hair that's living with my hearing loss, but can hear across the spectrum up to the point where I have no living cochlear hairs. Does that continue to hold true with CI's (except up to 8 kHz since it's interfacing with the cochlear nerves)?

I wonder how accurate these demos are... were they put together by people with cochlear implants, or by marketing? Oh all right, I'll just click on the link and see. :lol:

[Edit]
Ok, I've listened to the recordings, and WOW. If that's what they truely sound like, that's certainly would be enough to drive me bonkers if I had to listen to that for a while. Since faire_jour said that it's not an accurate rendition of CI's, I wonder what they really sound like. Or at least, I'd like to read a comparable review between HA and CI's.
 
That's really interesting. Especially since the people with CI's say that it's not an accurate sampling. I do wonder what the people say when they transition from HA's to CI's. I understand that some people with CI's hear better than HA's, but I don't know what it means, especially when comparing 30,000 hairs to 28 electrodes. Do sounds appear the same? Distorted any? Is the full range of music still appealing or does one get portions here and there?

...

Seems like everybody forgets how marvelous the human brain is in adapting to what input it is given. Yes, a CI provides limited input compared to normal hearing and all that jazz. That being said from a subjective viewpoint comparing a HA to a CI, one adapts quite quickly to sounds per se. Where the difficulty lies in in speech understanding.

To answer some of the questions...

1) Do the sounds appear the same? At first, not really. Some sounds appear correct and others distorted. After a fairly short interval, the sounds started to sound as before when I had my HA. It took me one day to get voices down pat and sounding natural. In fact, it was my voice I had the most trouble with as I never heard myself this way. Nobody hears their own voice like others hear them except with a CI (bone conduction is lost with a CI).

2) Are sounds distorted? After the first couple of days (for me), now they sound pretty normal.

3) Does one hear a full range of music or a portion? Due to the frequency limitation on both the low end and high end, there is no way a CI can get the full range (at least not with today's technology). Having said that, I listen to music all the time (and in fact listing to Ambient right now as I type). It sounds quite good as long as the music doesn't go to the extreme frequencies on either end. In other words, most music is enjoyable without any gaps.

As far as the 30k cochlear hairs vs 28 electrode points, well it is my understanding that one is getting far more than 28 discrete points but well short of the 30k level. It is in how the electrode programmatically triggers a multitude of responses in the cochlear nerve to provide a reasonable threshold of hearing.

One last note. I can't say with certainty what my DB threshold is compared to my HA days. But I can say that my hearing with a CI is significantly improved over my HA days that I can do things with my CI I could only dream of with my HA. Things like using phones all day, converse without lipreading nor looking at their face, hear things I couldn't with my HA.
 
sr171soars - thanks for that post the others had me worried there a bit. See I've had HAs in one ear or the other growing up and in 2000 I went to wearing one in each ear all of the time. 3 Weeks ago I was implanted in my left ear and I get activated tomorrow. I was told by different people implanted and not implanted that the sound I hear the first couple of weeks might be a bit off but with programming and therapy this will improve to a point that I will enjoy the benefits of having the CI.
 
That's really interesting. Especially since the people with CI's say that it's not an accurate sampling. I do wonder what the people say when they transition from HA's to CI's. I understand that some people with CI's hear better than HA's, but I don't know what it means, especially when comparing 30,000 hairs to 28 electrodes. Do sounds appear the same? Distorted any? Is the full range of music still appealing or does one get portions here and there?

Maybe that sample for CI only applies for the first few days then it starts to sound more normal as your brain gets used to the new sounds? :hmm:

Normal hearing has 30,000 hairs, that's 15,000 hairs each ear. No CI has more than 22 electrodes but even that is better when you have no hairs, or at least no normally functioning hairs. HAs can't replace hairs, they simply amplify and stimulate the few damaged hairs you have left. CI destroys those few hairs and takes the place of the hairs and stimulates your nerves directly.

CIs biggest draw is improved speech perception. Many people say music sounds terrible with CIs, but with only 22 electrodes, youll only hear 22 different pitches maximum. That's enough for understanding speech though. if you want to hear music great, gotta wait for stem cells.

For example, with HA's, I have whatever hair that's living with my hearing loss, but can hear across the spectrum up to the point where I have no living cochlear hairs. Does that continue to hold true with CI's (except up to 8 kHz since it's interfacing with the cochlear nerves)?

A realistic expectation with CI is youll hear 250Hz to 4000Hz at 25db to 40db threshold levels. This will cover a good part of the speech banana. The high frequencies above 4000Hz aren't important for speech or sounds, very little of either take place above 4000Hz.

You can try the piano thud test for cochlear dead regions. I hear well up to the 900Hz range and above 1200Hz I hear nothing. I can hear down to 30Hz or less since I, you and 90% of people have a sloping audiogram, they hear the low frequencies much better. I don't want to lose the lows with CI.
 
I have asked dozens of CI users if they think it is an appropriate sample of what they hear (ie if it sounds normal to them), they have ALL told me no, that it sounds weird and robotic. They say that they hear that it is very different from the normal hearing.

Of course not! Their brain are TRAINED to fill in the gaps and make it sounds more natural to THEM. That what CI would sounds like if people's brain didn't fix itself. So basically, the sample is just an indication of what it sounds like without the auto-interpretation that our wonderful grey matters provide us.

As an analogy, my expensive sound surround, top of the line, broke a few months ago. Since I don't have the money, I replaced them with a $5 speaker set. After about two weeks, I adjusted and now the $5 speaker is natural to me and sounds just like my sound surround, even though other people who walk into my suite say it's horrid quality.
 
Of course not! Their brain are TRAINED to fill in the gaps and make it sounds more natural to THEM. That what CI would sounds like if people's brain didn't fix itself. So basically, the sample is just an indication of what it sounds like without the auto-interpretation that our wonderful grey matters provide us.

As an analogy, my expensive sound surround, top of the line, broke a few months ago. Since I don't have the money, I replaced them with a $5 speaker set. After about two weeks, I adjusted and now the $5 speaker is natural to me and sounds just like my sound surround, even though other people who walk into my suite say it's horrid quality.

So why don't people give more effort with their HAs? It may sound terrible at first but once you train the brain(as my audie tells everyone) youll adjust and itll sound natural. Your $5 speaker saves you hundreds over a top of the line. A $2500 HA(high end at that) costs way less than a $50,000 CI.
 
So why don't people give more effort with their HAs? It may sound terrible at first but once you train the brain(as my audie tells everyone) youll adjust and itll sound natural. Your $5 speaker saves you hundreds over a top of the line. A $2500 HA(high end at that) costs way less than a $50,000 CI.

Once you get a CI, there's no reverting it? Once you made the decision with the CI, you are basically stuck with it and the only other option is be completely deaf in that ear? Unlike CIs, with hearing aids, you can either choose to get another product or just make use of the hearing you have.
 
Once you get a CI, there's no reverting it? Once you made the decision with the CI, you are basically stuck with it and the only other option is be completely deaf in that ear? Unlike CIs, with hearing aids, you can either choose to get another product or just make use of the hearing you have.


Exactly, couldn't agree more.
 
I agree that CI's aren't right for everyone, but for the right set of people, they're perfect. It occurred to me late last night, that I did go through some sound distortion and brain re-tuning with my hearing aids a long while back when I switched from analog to digital. It did sound bizarre at first, and was difficult to understand, and then later transitioned into something more natural sounding and easier to understand.

On another note, I only buy the cheapest headphones and speakers. The sound quality is only as good as the weakest point (my ears). Sometimes I splurge and get the one with the boom mic.
 
Normal hearing has 30,000 hairs, that's 15,000 hairs each ear. No CI has more than 22 electrodes but even that is better when you have no hairs, or at least no normally functioning hairs. HAs can't replace hairs, they simply amplify and stimulate the few damaged hairs you have left. CI destroys those few hairs and takes the place of the hairs and stimulates your nerves directly.

I was looking in the clinical trials for cochlear implants last night (Home - ClinicalTrials.gov). I recall seeing one where they implant a short length electrode array to preserve higher frequency cochlear hairs for later medically-facilitated evolution, e.g. stem cells. If you're wondering what I'm referring to, it's the Iowa/Nucleus 10/10 mm electrode array in clinical trial NCT00594061.

CIs biggest draw is improved speech perception. Many people say music sounds terrible with CIs, but with only 22 electrodes, youll only hear 22 different pitches maximum. That's enough for understanding speech though. if you want to hear music great, gotta wait for stem cells.

Yes, but like others have indicated, the brain is a powerful tool, and could extrapolate and fill in the gaps between the pitches. How great, I have no idea.

Even with the hearing speech improvement, does it also reflect upon your own speech? For example, if you could not hear "s" with HA's, but can with the CI's, do you start saying the "s"'s more often? I've had years of speech therapy, including focus on the "s, and I cannot say how often I keep on dropping the "s" from the words I say. My old speech therapist always used to tell me, "don't forget your 'S', or you'll be in a mess!" How true that is. It's embarrassing to be talking about hard disks to customers and management when I'm dropping my S's. Especially when they tilt their heads right when I say "hard disks", and they say, "excuse me?". (When dropping the S's, it sounds like I said something else... (replace the first s in disks with a "c" and you'll see what I mean). :shock:) I always try to play it off and say "You know, hard drives? DASD? Stuff that holds your data in files and folders?" At least we don't use floppies (floppy disks) anymore. :laugh2:

You can try the piano thud test for cochlear dead regions. I hear well up to the 900Hz range and above 1200Hz I hear nothing. I can hear down to 30Hz or less since I, you and 90% of people have a sloping audiogram, they hear the low frequencies much better. I don't want to lose the lows with CI.

Makes sense, and it's a legitimate concern. You don't want to lose what you have, and rather assist what you do have. I'll be experimenting with the piano thud test later on to see where the dead zone is for me.
 
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The normal hearing sounds way better. Rich, smooth and fluid. The CI sounds scratchy, staticity and bassy.

I don't think you can take the demo as strickly as, A is the way things sound with a CI, but more of an example of loss of input that maybe, with a CI.

If A were always the way things sound with a CI, and I listen to both with a CI they would sound the same to me. That's not the case, normal sounds " way better, rich, smooth, and fluid" to me also, good words.
 
sr171soars - thanks for that post the others had me worried there a bit. See I've had HAs in one ear or the other growing up and in 2000 I went to wearing one in each ear all of the time. 3 Weeks ago I was implanted in my left ear and I get activated tomorrow. I was told by different people implanted and not implanted that the sound I hear the first couple of weeks might be a bit off but with programming and therapy this will improve to a point that I will enjoy the benefits of having the CI.

I should have added a disclaimer that everybody is different. Some take off like a rocket, some need a couple of weeks and others take a while to get going with their CI. It really depends on the person and how they utilize what they have. At least this is true for environmental sounds. Speech is a whole different category. I had the fortune to get both down pat very quickly.

Oh yes, best of success with your hookup!
 
Well just to add a little from my on experience. The sample is nothing like the sounds I'm getting after activation today. I can understand speech better then I thought I would but there is a tweeting or chirping sound with every pronunciation/syllable of the words I hear. Kind of like listening to Mr. Rogers and his little trolly train talk at the same time.

I'm thinking the tweeting will calm down as my brain figures out what to associate it with plus futher programming.
 
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