Women in Christianity

As I'm sure you're all aware, different Christian sects and denominations have different ways of treating women.

To the best of my knowledge, it is only certain Protestant denominations that give women equal status in the church up to and including the right for a woman to be ordained as a minister if that is her calling. The church I attend is a Methodist church, and one of the ordained ministers is female, and an extremely capable preacher as well as counselor on an individual basis. I know people whom she has helped in great ways. I have also seen her preach and I know that she has much to do with the success of our church's contemporary service.

Some other Protestant denominations, the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Churches do not allow women equal status, which can manifest itself in various ways. For some it is that women are simply not allowed to become ministers/priests--in others it extends all the way to women not being allowed to teach Sunday school or to have any say about what goes on in their marriages. This obviously varies tremendously from country to country, but even in the U.S. there's a pretty wide spectrum of views on this.

I am going to share my own views on this--I have had many tearful prayers about this subject after a young man I had been considering asking on a date told me some very disturbing things about his beliefs about women. Not only was I sad in that regard, knowing that there was no way I could possibly have a relationship with him (and even with the friendship I felt uncomfortable after that), but I was sad for him because of the many impressive women that he will meet in the future, in whom he might not be able to appreciate their work for God.

I asked God about all of this--why He would not allow women, who are supposed to be His adopted daughters, to inherit the kingdom and participate in it as He does His adoptive sons. How could it be right for women to be looked down upon and restricted from the use of gifts that God Himself gave them?

The answer that God returned to me was very clear, and restored my peace--that no, God does not reject His daughters and that He does love them equally to His sons.

As to the relationship between husband and wife, I began to realize that there was evidence of something more than the most conservative people talk about.

In the Song of Solomon, a book that is in the Bible because of its demonstration of a Godly relationship between husband and wife, we find this description by the Beloved, in Verse 2:16

16 My lover is mine and I am his;
he browses among the lilies.

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Submission turns out to be mutual, not just the role of the female! Both have an "ownership" share in the relationship, and both compromise for the other's sake. Such relationships work--I have seen it with my own eyes, in the case of my parents. On the surface it can look a bit "messier" because my mother has no problem voicing her displeasure with something she doesn't agree with. However, she is in a relationship where she knows that she will be listened to. She knows, furthermore, that the discussion will not be closed until agreement is reached--and depending on the facts of the case, NOT gender, the final decision could go either way. As I said, it looks "sloppier" at first because these discussions and debates actually come out into the open air. But in this frankness, and mutual compromise, the relationship is stronger than one in which the balance is tilted unfairly in one direction OR the other. Neither party is to dominate the other--the husband is not, nor is the wife.

In the New Testament, the man is called to demonstrate a Christlike--sacrificial--love for his wife. The full implications of this are striking. This is not simply humoring one's wife from time to time. Remember that when Christ was tempted in the desert, one thing Satan tried to get Him to do was to exert worldly power that technically He was capable of exerting...that is, power over all of the worldly kingdoms. This is the same thing Simon Zealotes tried to get Christ to do. Jesus had the power within Him that would allow Him to do it. Society (as demonstrated by Zealotes) definitely wanted Him to, and thought that was what the Messiah was supposed to do. But what did Christ actually do? He refused the temptation and did not seize this power that it would have been wrong and hurtful to take--even though the world believed it was right.

The same is true of a man's dilemma. Society would condone his exercising power over his wife, and did in the most horrible ways for a long time. In some areas, even in the U.S., it is still condoned. Those men who choose a different way are reviled by the world: "whipped" is one of the mildest terms applied to them. The world is constantly pushing the husband to seize power. Christ commands him to lay aside his crown, just as He did.

We can also look to Jesus' conduct towards women--and in my reading He did much during His ministry to sow the seeds of equality in His time, even if they did not flower until later. It used to be that in ancient Judaism a woman was not to even study the Law--she wasn't JUST forbidden from teaching. When a woman named Mary approached and sat at His feet to learn, and her sister chided her for it, Jesus told her that Mary should stay and listen to Him.

Luke 10:41-42 said:

"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, but only one thing is needed.[f] Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."

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"It will not be taken away from her..."

That makes it very clear to me that Christ wished for women to receive an education in His ways, the same as the men.

And THIS is where I think the early church's prohibitions against women in teaching positions come from...not the inherent unworthiness of women (more so than men), but from the fact that at that time, women did not have access to education and thus were less qualified to answer spiritual questions. It wasn't that they were inherently weaker or less intelligent--simply less educated, and they needed to catch up in their education so that they would not speak out of ignorance and accidentally derail a person's spiritual progress without knowing what they were doing. This is also why I think women were asked to be silent in church at the time, and to ask their husbands their questions...the idea was for their husbands to educate them so that they would be able to participate in a much more meaningful fashion later. Ignorance can be remedied, and this is what Christ sought to do.

In our times, the education barrier has been surpassed--and the time for women to step up into their place in the Kingdom of God is now.

Christ died for His daughters-to-be as well as His sons-to-be. Eve's sins are redeemed as well as Adam's now, and women are invited to approach Him and to work for Him just the same as men.

Let me close with this from Galatians 3:26-29.

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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I appreciate your candor. I have never doubted God's love for me as a woman. I need only look at the Book of Ruth...

Or meditate upon the Samaritan woman who Jesus met at the well. She was the first to share the gospel after all.

Then there's Mary Magdalene...

I need not go on.

God loves his people - all of them - and wants only good to come to them. If he meant for me to be a slave, a subjugate, a lesser being, he would not have given me the mind I have. He did not intend it to be wasted.

Thank you very much, MT.

Not to mention the first human beings to learn the Good News of Christ's Resurrection...who was first charged to share that news with others? They were women, and had been educated wonderfully through experience even if not book learning, and thus Jesus saw them as well prepared to carry out that task.

Very good, rose. Yes, all the arugment about women when they use as "women should be quiet" and " pastor should have one wife", but didn't mention pastorette should have one husband. I'm glad u pointed out about, woman at the well, Mary and Matha, Mary Magdalene and etc. Yes, God uses women also, look at Joyce Meyers, she preaches awesome. God uses her. But her boss is her husband, bec he runs the ministry, bec Joyce follow what the bible said. As the scripture said, wives, submit ur husband. Now those of you are husband, that does not mean u sit in the couch and demanding your wife to get something for you, bec the next verse says, husband, love your wife. During jesus times and even long beofre that, women been treating like dogs. Rose, continue to seek what God called you to do and make sure if its from God. Smile

Here is good example of God using Mother Teresa to do His work.

hottiedeafboi said:

Very good, rose. Yes, all the arugment about women when they use as "women should be quiet" and " pastor should have one wife", but didn't mention pastorette should have one husband. I'm glad u pointed out about, woman at the well, Mary and Matha, Mary Magdalene and etc. Yes, God uses women also, look at Joyce Meyers, she preaches awesome. God uses her. But her boss is her husband, bec he runs the ministry, bec Joyce follow what the bible said. As the scripture said, wives, submit ur husband. Now those of you are husband, that does not mean u sit in the couch and demanding your wife to get something for you, bec the next verse says, husband, love your wife. During jesus times and even long beofre that, women been treating like dogs. Rose, continue to seek what God called you to do and make sure if its from God. Smile

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I don't know yet exactly what it is God has in mind for me, but I truly do not believe that He will require that because He made me female, I will require a male overseer in order to do well in that task.

God Himself is the only overseer, master, and commander that I need--the only One sufficient in justice and mercy and in whom I can place my most complete trust. Not even an earthly lover is worth that level of trust.

MT, I know what u meant there. I agree about male be overseers. I'm not sure if u see my saying about Joyce Meyers. Its a largely supporter of her ministries God has called her to do, but her husband is in charge of the ministry which is her boss, bec she believe that wife should submit her husband. And I also explained about submissive on here too, if u haven't read, if not, go up to find it. Smile

hottiedeafboi said:

I'm not sure if u see my saying about Joyce Meyers. Its a largely supporter of her ministries God has called her to do, but her husband is in charge of the ministry which is her boss, bec she believe that wife should submit her husband.

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What a shame. Here is this strong, vibrant, intelligent child of God who denies what she can see in herself in favor of some old bs paradigmn of male superiority. How very sad.

Hahaha MT, no and I know what u r getting at. Her husband doesn't look down on her or anything like that. They discussed the matter together. Her husband treat her as a human being. Not sure if you read the other thread I told the husband understand the point of meaning, as written, wives, submit ur husband, and I said husband that does not mean u sit down on the couch and demand ur wife to get something for u and u left the mess and wife do the cleaning. Because the verse after that said, husband love your wife. Its not like mastery type, that's how it got all wrong. Joyce been treated by her husband with lotta love as she does to her husband. That's what she meant. And that's how christians been taught. Todays generation we no longer uses like in the wedding vows, for the bride said, I wed thee to love, trust and OBEY to the husband. As of old many husband mistreated wives and treat them like a dog, which God has not taught them to do. During the time of Jesus and before, and even after, jews treated wife horribly. But Jesus didn't.

hottiedeafboi said:

Hahaha MT, no and I know what u r getting at. Her husband doesn't look down on her or anything like that.

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If he agrees that the woman must be subordinate or submissive - I have news for you - he looks down on her. Many men who hold this point of view don't want people to think "he looks down on her" because that sounds bad. They want people to think it's a good thing for half the world's population to be thought of as second class.

...and you're right, people have stopped using the term "obey" in wedding vows...

because it's insulting.

I think you misread me in my previous comment. I was saying that I do not need any male overseer beyond Christ Himself whose leadership is true.

hottiedeafboi said:

As of old many husband mistreated wives and treat them like a dog, which God has not taught them to do.

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But I would also not even want to be treated like a beloved dog. Even if I were pampered, scratched on the head, given my favorite treats, dressed in the finest clothes, and taken for frequent walks, I am still in captivity. I am still on a leash.

Even a kind owner is still an OWNER and that is unacceptable unless it is God Himself claiming His ownership over me. My submission is to God through Jesus--not to any man subject to sin and the grave.

Well, MT, I do disagree how you look at and thinking the claim by looking down. I have seen who those godly couples treating each others. I'm glad women have something they can do, but I ve been seeing that women getting over the lines and being authoritive, which is not of God. As a husband, look at Christ, He's the Head, but how does He treating us? Same, husband should treat his wife likewise. And then by saying, wives, love your husband, as Christ loves the church. Husband and wives should be treated equally, but understand about being submissive, has to be treating wife with love, not demanding. Many thinking that's what that is, but its not. If a wife so much love to her husband, husband should repect her in godly manners. Now, if wife doing something that doing her own thing and no repect to the husband, its going to be consequences just as husband would have if he didn't treat a woman fairly by timidating her when his wife does everything for the husband and also loving, suffers likewise. No favor over the other.

Neither the husband or wife should dominate each other...the only way it works is total equality. Decisions need to be made together rather than one making decisions FOR the other.

These are some important questions to answer:

When Christ died on the Cross, was it just for men, or were women included as well?

If it is for both, then why are women treated as though Eve's sins are unforgiven yet Adam's are? Both sinned in the Garden of Eden--in fact, if you like, I can show you how each committed the exact same sinful acts.

Also, why would Christ educate women--both Mary and the Samaritan woman, and others--knowing that education is power?

Another question: the Bible also commands that slaves should submit to their masters. Yet if you suggest to anybody that this means slavery is OK and that slaves should have never gained their freedom because slavery is mentioned in the Bible, then they RIGHTLY condemn that view. Why, then, is outright slavery unacceptable, but the silent slavery of wives to husbands acceptable?

I agree with you everything u said, yes, christ died for ALL, not some or one sided. Yes, Jesus called Mary what she need to do. But as for me, u and I may see different way, but haha, don't get the slightest hint of whatever you think what I'm saying the idea. That's jsut for an example, if I married to you, I wouldn't dare to tell you, you must obey me, or I putting all the demands on you. That's not of Christ. I treat you as a woman with respect, if you and I disagree some things, we need to sit down and talk and express the views as a teamwork. Even help a wife to do chores or like asking favors, that is if I ask you favor as you ask me favor like supporting one another. But there is few not a lot, suppose one thing its hard for me to figure in what issues, if something that not agree upon, and never works, husband have to make a final decision, like I said can happen in very rare incident or won't happen at all. The show "Little House on the Prairie", is a very good example. The Ingalls and the Olesons. Look what husband and wife of the Ingalls and compared with Oleson. To me, Nells Oleson is very humble man and his wife is hard to deal with. The Ingalls in the other hand, they do for each other, charles made some mistakes, but his love for his wife is awesome, his wife made a mistakes also, but her love for her husband is awesome. As I see, his wife do her thing as her husband do his. When conflict happen, they aided, you remember his wife submit form, but not felt timidating by her husband, but when hardship hit them, her husband doesn't want his wife do adding chores, but she insist she want to aid her husband, then her husband agrees bec how much his wife wants to do for him. Its a beautiful example. But as for me, I know u and I see different views. But agree the perspective of christ and about the women. So, I wouldn't bring the label of it which cause a conflict. I was divorce, the reason is not btwn my wife and me, its her parents and her sister, div8ided us, my wife more commiting her parents than me, bec if she doesn't do things of her parents way, she will love everything, thru my marriage, her mom severely controlled my family. So I fianlly stood up, and that how our marriages falls apart. My daughter totally despised her grandparents bec of it and her aunt she despised. But, she control herself very well, bec I told her, forgiveness is hard thing to do, but if you take a moment to look at the cross, how much christ forgives, so we do the same and it is a healing part. What if they refuse to forgive, I told her that's their problem. They are still under unforgiving state. Christ helped me thru it, during my long patience under by mom in law controlling which causing hard relationship btwn my wife and me, bec constant interference lead me into adultery. That's not mean, I made excuse for that. Tho my daughter understands me, bec it is hard to live thru this. She has a very good sense. Yes, I confess of my mistakes. And God has forgiving me. I have seen God still working in me and seeing evolving around me. He is good Lord to me.

hottiedeafboi said:

...husband have to make a final decision.

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You can dance around the issue all you want, and dress it all up to make it look pretty, but what it comes down to for you is statements like this. There is nothing more heinous to me than using the Bible to justify subjugation or domination - in this country we used it to enslave blacks and deny women equal protection under the law. If you want this to be the "rule" in your household, so be it, but not in MY house...and please don't give me some hack line about how the Bible says this is how it should be. That's just a bunch of outmoded thinking designed to keep minorities from sharing in the bounty of life - and it has nothing at all to do with Christ's message.

Tell me how you'd feel if I said - "When a hearing person and a deaf person marry, the hearing person should make the final decision." Does this make you feel empowered, loved, cared for? There are many people who could just as easily tell you hearies are better than deafies - but it's still crap no matter what they use to justify a statement like that.

CORRECTION;; when I said if my wife don't do what her parents want, she will LOSE, not love (that's the error, not love, its lose) everything, bec she's from wealthy family. I rather have family than riches. Riches is good, but not riches over family. My ex wife chose material over me.

Historically, women has always been viewed as a property or inferior to men. The Bible is clearly sexist; it had to say that it was a woman that started the first sin! Women were never allowed to be priests.

Jesus said nothing to indicate that women are inferior but Paul did say women must be submissive in his letters. Pauline letters are clearly written with Paul's own personal views rather than the views of Jesus. That's why I reject Pauline letters.

netrox said:

Historically, women has always been viewed as a property or inferior to men. The Bible is clearly sexist; it had to say that it was a woman that started the first sin! Women were never allowed to be priests.

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I'm not so sure that some educated women didn't, in the very early days of the church, have positions of power. There are some archaeological reasons to suspect this but I don't have the time to get into it in detail at the moment. These things were later suppressed by certain people who did not want women to have power.

(P.S.: I'm NOT doing the whole "Da Vinci Code conspiracy" thing...my thought is different from THAT.)

About the sins committed by Adam and Eve, I can actually demonstrate for you, if you're interested, how each of them committed the same sins in the same type and number. Because of this, I think that interpretations placing MORE blame on the woman are incorrect. Let me know if you'd like me to walk through that passage and show you what I mean.

Jesus said nothing to indicate that women are inferior but Paul did say women must be submissive in his letters. Pauline letters are clearly written with Paul's own personal views rather than the views of Jesus. That's why I reject Pauline letters.

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I think Paul's issue, as I discussed in my initial post, is that he was dealing with the issues of the particular time. See my explanation above of the deficit in education women were facing at the time--they needed catch-up instruction to get up to where they needed to be.

But, you are VERY correct to point out that Jesus never said women were inferior. In fact, this goes to a point I was about to make anyway before I saw your post. This point is that I think Jesus was laying the groundwork for women to gain their freedom, in what He said and did.

The one thing I think would've concerned Him were those women who might take revenge. I know you're not Christian, netrox, but I suspect you and I both agree that revenge-taking is immoral even though it's against somone who's wronged you. So, I think ultimately the idea I get from the Bible is that it is not right to seize power in the wrong way--stuff like violent rebellion and otherwise putting people down to get one's way.

However, I personally think Jesus would've applauded things like the suffragettes who gained their rights through peaceful protests. The same with the Civil Rights protestor. That is exactly in the spirit of Christianity.

MT, I have clue why you put ur thought of viewing of me. Let me put it this way, like I shared about Joyce Meyers and her husband. Charles and Caroline Ingalls, do you see the wives upset, complained, mumbles or something? This what I have women saying, that's their problem. What problem? They don't have a problem, they have full life. Because for each other and some also said, women like Joyce or Caroline have feeble mind, and you know what, I say these women like Joyce and Caroline are strong woman and stand for their marriage and satisfy what they have regard what other women looked at. I don't agree with sexism and power of it. About btwn hearing and deaf, that has nothing to do with that, its about marriage. What so bitter what I said husband should treat the wife. U kept thinking wrongfully of my saying and my way of it. Like I said, I'm not going to label about this issue. Its totally useless of that. Like I said, I love and support Joyce Meyers ministry. But makes me feel like finding a way to make me look bad and think that how I act. MT, I will hot hold bitter against you. Bec its not my way of doing.

I think that to be enslaved and not to realize it, to be happy in captivity, is even worse than to realize one is in chains and being unhappy. The first is false happiness. That's what I find SO intensely disturbing about women who accept a second-class role and seem unbothered by it. Either they're hiding their pain or they are ignorant to their situation. Note that I say ignorant and not stupid, though--there's a great difference between the two.